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The answer to all of your questions is "it depends". I can say with certainty that no one is going to be able to provide an accurate answer without looking at e

The answer to all of your questions is "it depends". I can say with certainty that no one is going to be able to provide an accurate answer without looking at each case individually. Generally speaking: - It's typically okay to receive money from foreign companies and foreign-owned businesses/organizations. Both culturally and legally. E.g., the government explicitly black-lists instead of white-lists. - Forgetting to report small amounts of money (low five figures at a time) can be chalked up to sloppiness, even if the total amount adds up to six figures over a long period of time. E.g., just as a graduate student I received mid five figures worth of travel grants and honorariums from a half dozen different funding agencies, many of them foreign-owned. As a more senior researcher I now keep track of every penny in and out of my group, but many of my colleagues do not. And that's reasonable -- they effectively run small consulting shops with seven figure annual budgets and were never taught how to run a small business! Don't get me wrong, they should be way more serious about these things (and most people now realize this), but there's lots of failure to report that IMO doesn't rise to the level of fraud or criminal conspiracy. - Forgetting to report larger funding streams (six figures/yr for multiple years, or any funding stream that adds up to more than maybe a half million) is either fraud or at least such inexcusable oversight that firing is perhaps not an unreasonable action. - This all gets more complicated if the funding was received "on the side" (i.e., not through the university). Note: it is 100% Ok and even normal for professors to do consulting/advising on the side. To be clear, they still need to report this funding. But, again, it's super believable that someone could forget to report or not know they were supposed to report for a side gig. - Similarly, this all gets more complicated if the funding was received many years ago and was not a huge sum. E.g., did I receive any money from <insert random European country> while doing my PhD or the first couple years afterward? No fucking clue, that entire time of life was a whirlwind and no one trained me to keep track of such things.

caseysoftware 6y ago
Scientists and their organizations have an obligation to identify and mitigate conflicts of interest. If scientists are receiving funding off the books without disclosing, they're either actively or "accidentally" preventing that. Further, they likely breached their ethics policy which is usually the part of their contract, employment agreement, etc ^ These apply regardless of the source. Now considering the source, you have to investigate if they disclosed or were asked to disclose information on the policies, studies, etc they came in contact with. Alternatively, did they adjust or were they asked to adjust their positions, policies, studies, etc that they were involved in? ^ Turns out those apply regardless of the source too. In the most charitable explanation, they were incredibly sloppy multiple times in multiple ways. In the worst explanation, they committed espionage and/or damaged the entire process. The answer is likely somewhere in between.
- throwawaygh 6y ago
  I don't think there's any debate over whether or not these scientists did something wrong. The question is the nature of the wrongness. Was it some trivial clerical error being painted as treason by insane anti-China zealots? Or did what they do actually rise to the level of fraud/treason? I.e., is this communist witch hunt v 2.0, or did these scientists really deserve to be fired/face criminal charges? And, again, I don't think an answer to that question is possible without looking at each case individually. Anyone claiming to have an answer without going case-by-case is in over their head. The rest of your post is wild speculation about the nature of the foreign talents program and level of involvement in that program of particular individuals.
rayiner 6y ago
Forgetting to report even a small amount of money if done deliberately can usually be prosecuted as a felony.
- throwawaygh 6y ago
  > if done deliberately Right. And even unintentionally is quite bad. But also not even close to uncommon. I don't think the question was "was what these people did bad?" I think the question was "is what these people did really _that_ bad?"

caseysoftware 6y ago

Scientists and their organizations have an obligation to identify and mitigate conflicts of interest. If scientists are receiving funding off the books without disclosing, they're either actively or "accidentally" preventing that. Further, they likely breached their ethics policy which is usually the part of their contract, employment agreement, etc ^ These apply regardless of the source. Now considering the source, you have to investigate if they disclosed or were asked to disclose information on the policies, studies, etc they came in contact with. Alternatively, did they adjust or were they asked to adjust their positions, policies, studies, etc that they were involved in? ^ Turns out those apply regardless of the source too. In the most charitable explanation, they were incredibly sloppy multiple times in multiple ways. In the worst explanation, they committed espionage and/or damaged the entire process. The answer is likely somewhere in between.

throwawaygh 6y ago
I don't think there's any debate over whether or not these scientists did something wrong. The question is the nature of the wrongness. Was it some trivial clerical error being painted as treason by insane anti-China zealots? Or did what they do actually rise to the level of fraud/treason? I.e., is this communist witch hunt v 2.0, or did these scientists really deserve to be fired/face criminal charges? And, again, I don't think an answer to that question is possible without looking at each case individually. Anyone claiming to have an answer without going case-by-case is in over their head. The rest of your post is wild speculation about the nature of the foreign talents program and level of involvement in that program of particular individuals.

rayiner 6y ago

Forgetting to report even a small amount of money if done deliberately can usually be prosecuted as a felony.

throwawaygh 6y ago
> if done deliberately Right. And even unintentionally is quite bad. But also not even close to uncommon. I don't think the question was "was what these people did bad?" I think the question was "is what these people did really _that_ bad?"