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I don't see this kind of hostility. China is a commercial competitor. The US is trying to transform commercial competition into a racist war. I think this is de

I don't see this kind of hostility. China is a commercial competitor. The US is trying to transform commercial competition into a racist war. I think this is despicable.

ipsocannibal 6y ago
One typical CCP propaganda tactic is make intellectually dishonest accusations of racism to deflect from CCP malfeasance. The CCP has a long history of using seemingly benign interactions with foreign nations as an opportunity for espionage. Scurtiny of all ties to China, especially hidden ties, is just due diligence at this point.
- evidencebased 6y ago
  One typical American propaganda tactic is to suggest that only communist countries that the US doesn't like are conducting espionage, or that espionage is uncommon in geopolitics. This way, the US government can easily justify discriminatory policies that unjustly targets, say Chinese researchers, to its public. The US has a long history of spying on foreign nations and stealing IP to benefit American businesses. US media has a long history of outright lying and otherwise spreading propaganda to manufacture consent for the government. Any accusations by the US government against other countries should be taken with a giant grain of salt, especially without proof.
  - ipsocannibal 6y ago
    Sounds reasonable. Lets see those investigations from other nations concerning US actions. Please do link to these occurrences as they will further the discussion of the role of espionage in scientific research.
    - fit2rule 6y ago
      Perhaps you've heard of the Crypto AG case, where the CIA infiltrated a foreign company and used its resources to spy on countless other countries, usurp intellectual property from foreign businesses, and used their moles in Crypto AG to give American companies an unfair market advantage: https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/world/national-security/cia-crypto-encryption-machines-espionage/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/world/national-... This was one of Snowden's big revelations - America had been using Crypto AG (a Swiss company) to infiltrate and usurp countless other foreign businesses, to give American companies a distinct advantage - FOR DECADES, since the 70's!!! (Also, it is quite well known that the CIA runs Germany's BND. Does China's intelligence agency run the intelligence agencies of any other sovereign nation, that you know of?) This is the pot. And the kettle is also black, btw.
      - bhk 6y ago
        Do you have any evidence of this? I could not find any mention of secrets being shared with companies in the (very long) article you linked.
        fit2rule 6y ago
        Well, you can start your research into this goldmine of details about the USA's many stages of industrial espionage right here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_espionage#Industrial_espionage_as_part_of_US_foreign_policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_espionage#Industria... Find out what Edward Snowden has to say about it: https://www.bbc.com/news/25907502 https://www.bbc.com/news/25907502 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-security-snowden-germany/snowden-says-nsa-engages-in-industrial-espionage-tv-idUSBREA0P0DE20140126 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-security-snowden-germany/... .. and then, if you're still so interested, investigate what was stolen from Siemens (Germany) and Petrobras (Brasil) and France Telecom .. https://www.motherjones.com/politics/1995/05/help-wanted-spying-allies/ https://www.motherjones.com/politics/1995/05/help-wanted-spy... Careful, though. Its probably illegal for American citizens to find out too much about this.
        ipsocannibal 6y ago
        Most of this information appears to be readily accessable from the US. Let me know when you find that report where a US citizen was arrested or charged for reading any of this.
        fit2rule 6y ago
        Sibel Edmonds.
      - ipsocannibal 6y ago
        So is your argument that the US spys so it shouldn't look for potential cases of foreign spying in its own country? That seems kind of naive. In light of your argument transparency in research funding becomes even more important BECAUSE the US government spies so readily not in spite of it. The US can only expect countries to try to treat it in the manner its treats them so we should be looking for it. This article highlights the looking for it part.
    - evidencebased 6y ago
      No need. Straight from the horse's mouth: Secretary of State and former CIA director Mike Pompeo: "we lied, we cheated, we stole..."
  - scottLobster 6y ago
    So your argument is the government is lying about this so it can target Chinese American researchers who did properly disclose and are doing everything right? And what evidence do you have of Chinese American researchers being unfairly prosecuted or held to different standards? It seems to be a common frame among those defending China that the US is still the way it was in the 1950s. Which I guess makes sense, given that under Xi China is descending into a type of Neo-Maoism. I imagine Chinese propagandists are dusting off a lot of the old talking points. At any rate, China's "mistake" from that perspective is that they integrated Capitalism as much as they have over the last 40 years. They are no longer viewed as a "Communist" threat by many Americans, they're viewed (correctly) as a dictatorship. There is no philosophical debate to be had, the Chinese love capitalism just as much as Americans do. No, they're just a straight-up underhanded dictatorship trying to seize as much power as it can. Americans know how to process that sort of threat.
    - evidencebased 6y ago
      My argument is that certain questions need to be asked instead of taking the headline at face value, given the history of questionable actions by the US government and media when it comes foreign nations. If you've read the article or looked at the linked resources, it's obvious that this campaign is directed towards China, and therefore Chinese or Chinese-American researchers. One question that should be immediately obvious to ask is: how are the targets chosen in this investigation? Is it a blanket investigation of all scientists of a certain seniority in certain fields regardless of nationality or race? It seems to be a common frame among those attacking China that China is still the way it was in the 1950s. Which I guess makes sense, given that under Trump/Obama, the US is descending back into McCarthyism. I imagine American propagandists are dusting off a lot of the old talking points. From my experience, the general American public still think China is communist. I agree regarding China and capitalism, but a dictatorship it is not. If you were to compare China's foreign policy with that of the US, it fairly obvious that China is simply trying to build itself up through economic means, but the US feels threatened by the competition so it uses underhanded tactics such as smearing China in every MSM outlet, banning US companies from doing business with Chinese companies, banning Chinese technology, etc. It's almost identical to what it did to Japan back in the days which is why you're running Intel or AMD today instead of Fujitsu, Hitachi, Toshiba.
cle 6y ago
Many in the US see China as much more than a commercial competitor, but as an ideological and existential threat.
- evidencebased 6y ago
  Many in the US are brainwashed by the American media empire.
- magicsmoke 6y ago
  Which really seems like self-projection. America became an ideological and existential threat to many other countries around the world as it grew in power and became a global hegemon. Therefore, China is destined to take the same path as well. Take a look at how proselytization is embedded into Western civilization and not in the civilizations of East Asia and India. Christian missionary activity was a major driving force during the age of colonization as European missionaries raced to convert indigenous peoples because it's for their own good and they'll spend an eternity in hell otherwise. This same drive to convert other peoples for their own good carried over into many other Western ideas like human rights, liberalism, and communism even after people started dropping Christianity. When the philosophical underpinnings of a civilization is based on converting others, and you project that onto everyone else, it's not hard to imagine that as other people become more powerful, they'll focus all their energies on converting you and wiping your beliefs off the map. America thinks of the competition with China like the wars between Christianity and Islam during the crusades, where there can only be one true god. I'm sure China couldn't care less what American society does as long as it's on the other side of the Pacific. The civilizations of China and India do not have that same drive to convert others. You ever see Chinese and Indian foundations trying to spread Chinese and Indian values around the world like America does, and trying to make everyone live and think like Americans? China and India are xenophobic. They don't want you to become Chinese and Indians. They want you to stay as you are and leave them alone. And frankly, in an increasingly globalized world, this attitude of letting others do their own thing in their own part of the world instead of trying to spread their ideas like a virus is probably the best path to coexistence.
scottLobster 6y ago
What makes it racist exactly? Because Han Chinese are an ethnic minority in the US? By that logic any country that geopolitically competes with a country with different racial makeup is racist. I guess that means China shouldn't be allowed to geopolitically compete with any nation other than Taiwan and Singapore, given that Han Chinese are an ethnic minority everywhere else. Fine by me if that's your perspective.
dang 6y ago
Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar. There isn't nearly enough substance in this comment to enhance a good conversation, and we definitely don't need denunciatory rhetoric. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

I don't see this kind of hostility. China is a commercial competitor. The US is trying to transform commercial competition into a racist war. I think this is despicable.

ipsocannibal 6y ago

One typical CCP propaganda tactic is make intellectually dishonest accusations of racism to deflect from CCP malfeasance. The CCP has a long history of using seemingly benign interactions with foreign nations as an opportunity for espionage. Scurtiny of all ties to China, especially hidden ties, is just due diligence at this point.

evidencebased 6y ago
One typical American propaganda tactic is to suggest that only communist countries that the US doesn't like are conducting espionage, or that espionage is uncommon in geopolitics. This way, the US government can easily justify discriminatory policies that unjustly targets, say Chinese researchers, to its public. The US has a long history of spying on foreign nations and stealing IP to benefit American businesses. US media has a long history of outright lying and otherwise spreading propaganda to manufacture consent for the government. Any accusations by the US government against other countries should be taken with a giant grain of salt, especially without proof.
- ipsocannibal 6y ago
  Sounds reasonable. Lets see those investigations from other nations concerning US actions. Please do link to these occurrences as they will further the discussion of the role of espionage in scientific research.
  - fit2rule 6y ago
    Perhaps you've heard of the Crypto AG case, where the CIA infiltrated a foreign company and used its resources to spy on countless other countries, usurp intellectual property from foreign businesses, and used their moles in Crypto AG to give American companies an unfair market advantage: https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/world/national-security/cia-crypto-encryption-machines-espionage/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/world/national-... This was one of Snowden's big revelations - America had been using Crypto AG (a Swiss company) to infiltrate and usurp countless other foreign businesses, to give American companies a distinct advantage - FOR DECADES, since the 70's!!! (Also, it is quite well known that the CIA runs Germany's BND. Does China's intelligence agency run the intelligence agencies of any other sovereign nation, that you know of?) This is the pot. And the kettle is also black, btw.
    - bhk 6y ago
      Do you have any evidence of this? I could not find any mention of secrets being shared with companies in the (very long) article you linked.
      - fit2rule 6y ago
        Well, you can start your research into this goldmine of details about the USA's many stages of industrial espionage right here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_espionage#Industrial_espionage_as_part_of_US_foreign_policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_espionage#Industria... Find out what Edward Snowden has to say about it: https://www.bbc.com/news/25907502 https://www.bbc.com/news/25907502 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-security-snowden-germany/snowden-says-nsa-engages-in-industrial-espionage-tv-idUSBREA0P0DE20140126 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-security-snowden-germany/... .. and then, if you're still so interested, investigate what was stolen from Siemens (Germany) and Petrobras (Brasil) and France Telecom .. https://www.motherjones.com/politics/1995/05/help-wanted-spying-allies/ https://www.motherjones.com/politics/1995/05/help-wanted-spy... Careful, though. Its probably illegal for American citizens to find out too much about this.
        ipsocannibal 6y ago
        Most of this information appears to be readily accessable from the US. Let me know when you find that report where a US citizen was arrested or charged for reading any of this.
        fit2rule 6y ago
        Sibel Edmonds.
    - ipsocannibal 6y ago
      So is your argument that the US spys so it shouldn't look for potential cases of foreign spying in its own country? That seems kind of naive. In light of your argument transparency in research funding becomes even more important BECAUSE the US government spies so readily not in spite of it. The US can only expect countries to try to treat it in the manner its treats them so we should be looking for it. This article highlights the looking for it part.
  - evidencebased 6y ago
    No need. Straight from the horse's mouth: Secretary of State and former CIA director Mike Pompeo: "we lied, we cheated, we stole..."
- scottLobster 6y ago
  So your argument is the government is lying about this so it can target Chinese American researchers who did properly disclose and are doing everything right? And what evidence do you have of Chinese American researchers being unfairly prosecuted or held to different standards? It seems to be a common frame among those defending China that the US is still the way it was in the 1950s. Which I guess makes sense, given that under Xi China is descending into a type of Neo-Maoism. I imagine Chinese propagandists are dusting off a lot of the old talking points. At any rate, China's "mistake" from that perspective is that they integrated Capitalism as much as they have over the last 40 years. They are no longer viewed as a "Communist" threat by many Americans, they're viewed (correctly) as a dictatorship. There is no philosophical debate to be had, the Chinese love capitalism just as much as Americans do. No, they're just a straight-up underhanded dictatorship trying to seize as much power as it can. Americans know how to process that sort of threat.
  - evidencebased 6y ago
    My argument is that certain questions need to be asked instead of taking the headline at face value, given the history of questionable actions by the US government and media when it comes foreign nations. If you've read the article or looked at the linked resources, it's obvious that this campaign is directed towards China, and therefore Chinese or Chinese-American researchers. One question that should be immediately obvious to ask is: how are the targets chosen in this investigation? Is it a blanket investigation of all scientists of a certain seniority in certain fields regardless of nationality or race? It seems to be a common frame among those attacking China that China is still the way it was in the 1950s. Which I guess makes sense, given that under Trump/Obama, the US is descending back into McCarthyism. I imagine American propagandists are dusting off a lot of the old talking points. From my experience, the general American public still think China is communist. I agree regarding China and capitalism, but a dictatorship it is not. If you were to compare China's foreign policy with that of the US, it fairly obvious that China is simply trying to build itself up through economic means, but the US feels threatened by the competition so it uses underhanded tactics such as smearing China in every MSM outlet, banning US companies from doing business with Chinese companies, banning Chinese technology, etc. It's almost identical to what it did to Japan back in the days which is why you're running Intel or AMD today instead of Fujitsu, Hitachi, Toshiba.

cle 6y ago

Many in the US see China as much more than a commercial competitor, but as an ideological and existential threat.

evidencebased 6y ago
Many in the US are brainwashed by the American media empire.
magicsmoke 6y ago
Which really seems like self-projection. America became an ideological and existential threat to many other countries around the world as it grew in power and became a global hegemon. Therefore, China is destined to take the same path as well. Take a look at how proselytization is embedded into Western civilization and not in the civilizations of East Asia and India. Christian missionary activity was a major driving force during the age of colonization as European missionaries raced to convert indigenous peoples because it's for their own good and they'll spend an eternity in hell otherwise. This same drive to convert other peoples for their own good carried over into many other Western ideas like human rights, liberalism, and communism even after people started dropping Christianity. When the philosophical underpinnings of a civilization is based on converting others, and you project that onto everyone else, it's not hard to imagine that as other people become more powerful, they'll focus all their energies on converting you and wiping your beliefs off the map. America thinks of the competition with China like the wars between Christianity and Islam during the crusades, where there can only be one true god. I'm sure China couldn't care less what American society does as long as it's on the other side of the Pacific. The civilizations of China and India do not have that same drive to convert others. You ever see Chinese and Indian foundations trying to spread Chinese and Indian values around the world like America does, and trying to make everyone live and think like Americans? China and India are xenophobic. They don't want you to become Chinese and Indians. They want you to stay as you are and leave them alone. And frankly, in an increasingly globalized world, this attitude of letting others do their own thing in their own part of the world instead of trying to spread their ideas like a virus is probably the best path to coexistence.

scottLobster 6y ago

What makes it racist exactly? Because Han Chinese are an ethnic minority in the US? By that logic any country that geopolitically competes with a country with different racial makeup is racist. I guess that means China shouldn't be allowed to geopolitically compete with any nation other than Taiwan and Singapore, given that Han Chinese are an ethnic minority everywhere else. Fine by me if that's your perspective.

dang 6y ago

Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar. There isn't nearly enough substance in this comment to enhance a good conversation, and we definitely don't need denunciatory rhetoric. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]