4 ms·

You know software with good UX used to exist before telemetry became a thing?

shadowgovt 6y ago
Definitely, and it continues to exist after as well. But telemetry gives web developers an extremely simple and convenient tool to know what users are actually doing without even inconveniencing the users with explicit questions. I've done web development with a good telemetry set built into a page, and it is extremely informative regarding how users actually use the tool, as opposed to how the UX designers have predicted flow through the tool will be. To give a concrete example, a user might tell you that configuring permissions is "hard," and sitting with them during over the shoulder testing (which is expensive) might tell you a little bit about why. But without even asking the user, page telemetry can tell you that they are making a transition jump from the permissions configuration page to the page listing all of the resource names, because that's what's slowing them down---the UI didn't give them enough information to configure the resources because we assumed they knew what the resources were named. For a browser, anonymized usage stats can tell you whether most users keep all their bookmarks flat at the top of the bookmark bar or deeply nested in multiple subfolders, and that's usually valuable for deciding whether you want to emphasize a flat bar or folder management in the design. If most power users disable automatic anonymous telemetry and also use deeply-listed folders, no one should be surprised if deeply nested folders doesn't get better.
- mehrdadn 6y ago
  Yeah, invading people's privacy always makes things easier for everyone else, doesn't it? Doesn't mean people who care about it don't want or deserve quality...
  - shadowgovt 6y ago
    "Deserve" is complicated. To a first approximation that ignores a lot of details... What have they done to "deserve" it? They didn't buy it. They aren't making the process of figuring out what they want particularly easy. People who don't show up to vote also "deserve" a good government by virtue of being people who have to live in a governed society. It's harder to make one for them if the system for selecting leaders is missing their input, regardless of what they deserve. Popping out of the government analogy and back to software, power users are also in a position where they are more capable of adjusting their experience to suit their needs. All things being equal, a company with finite resources to develop software should dedicate those resources to assisting the non-power users more often than power users.
    - feanaro 6y ago
      While you argue your case, that one has to vocalise if one wants something, well, you are still ignoring the basic want of not having your privacy violated and the fact that you can vocalise something willfully, without it being spied away from you. I'm also extremely suspicious of the suggestion that this is something only power users would want.
      - shadowgovt 6y ago
        You can certainly vocalize something willfully. But the people who don't have to do any vocalization at all and are generating megabytes to gigabytes of data on how the application is used by their mere use of it are going to always have a default stronger voice than people who bother to show up on message boards to voice specific concerns.
        feanaro 6y ago
        I actually agree that if you are willing to ignore privacy concerns and a potentially large part of your userbase, then you can simply send megabytes to gigabytes of telemetry and pretend that is the best you could have done and that you have the best data. I'm simply saying that's not a good idea.
        shadowgovt 6y ago
        a) It's not a large part of the user base who switches off telemetry and they have the telemetry to know that b) for being "not a good idea", it's pretty much industry standard now for everything from business software to video games.
        feanaro 6y ago
        > a) It's not a large part of the user base who switches off telemetry and they have the telemetry to know that So you're claiming that it is typical for software with telemetry support to ignore your choice and still send telemetry about you turning off telemetry? That sounds wrong, but I cannot say I investigated this deeply. > b) for being "not a good idea", it's pretty much industry standard now for everything from business software to video games. As I understood the discussion, we were in fact discussing whether this is a good idea and whether it makes sense, so I think it's fair game to comment on it. As for it being an industry standard, that sounds like an overgeneralization. It is certainly not typical of software I use.

Definitely, and it continues to exist after as well. But telemetry gives web developers an extremely simple and convenient tool to know what users are actually doing without even inconveniencing the users with explicit questions. I've done web development with a good telemetry set built into a page, and it is extremely informative regarding how users actually use the tool, as opposed to how the UX designers have predicted flow through the tool will be. To give a concrete example, a user might tell you that configuring permissions is "hard," and sitting with them during over the shoulder testing (which is expensive) might tell you a little bit about why. But without even asking the user, page telemetry can tell you that they are making a transition jump from the permissions configuration page to the page listing all of the resource names, because that's what's slowing them down---the UI didn't give them enough information to configure the resources because we assumed they knew what the resources were named. For a browser, anonymized usage stats can tell you whether most users keep all their bookmarks flat at the top of the bookmark bar or deeply nested in multiple subfolders, and that's usually valuable for deciding whether you want to emphasize a flat bar or folder management in the design. If most power users disable automatic anonymous telemetry and also use deeply-listed folders, no one should be surprised if deeply nested folders doesn't get better.

mehrdadn 6y ago
Yeah, invading people's privacy always makes things easier for everyone else, doesn't it? Doesn't mean people who care about it don't want or deserve quality...
- shadowgovt 6y ago
  "Deserve" is complicated. To a first approximation that ignores a lot of details... What have they done to "deserve" it? They didn't buy it. They aren't making the process of figuring out what they want particularly easy. People who don't show up to vote also "deserve" a good government by virtue of being people who have to live in a governed society. It's harder to make one for them if the system for selecting leaders is missing their input, regardless of what they deserve. Popping out of the government analogy and back to software, power users are also in a position where they are more capable of adjusting their experience to suit their needs. All things being equal, a company with finite resources to develop software should dedicate those resources to assisting the non-power users more often than power users.
  - feanaro 6y ago
    While you argue your case, that one has to vocalise if one wants something, well, you are still ignoring the basic want of not having your privacy violated and the fact that you can vocalise something willfully, without it being spied away from you. I'm also extremely suspicious of the suggestion that this is something only power users would want.
    - shadowgovt 6y ago
      You can certainly vocalize something willfully. But the people who don't have to do any vocalization at all and are generating megabytes to gigabytes of data on how the application is used by their mere use of it are going to always have a default stronger voice than people who bother to show up on message boards to voice specific concerns.
      - feanaro 6y ago
        I actually agree that if you are willing to ignore privacy concerns and a potentially large part of your userbase, then you can simply send megabytes to gigabytes of telemetry and pretend that is the best you could have done and that you have the best data. I'm simply saying that's not a good idea.
        shadowgovt 6y ago
        a) It's not a large part of the user base who switches off telemetry and they have the telemetry to know that b) for being "not a good idea", it's pretty much industry standard now for everything from business software to video games.
        feanaro 6y ago
        > a) It's not a large part of the user base who switches off telemetry and they have the telemetry to know that So you're claiming that it is typical for software with telemetry support to ignore your choice and still send telemetry about you turning off telemetry? That sounds wrong, but I cannot say I investigated this deeply. > b) for being "not a good idea", it's pretty much industry standard now for everything from business software to video games. As I understood the discussion, we were in fact discussing whether this is a good idea and whether it makes sense, so I think it's fair game to comment on it. As for it being an industry standard, that sounds like an overgeneralization. It is certainly not typical of software I use.