5 ms·

An external perspective from a non-American; I think curbing any kind of foreign influence is a good thing based on China related news in my own country. Also I

by Magodo 6y ago

An external perspective from a non-American; I think curbing any kind of foreign influence is a good thing based on China related news in my own country. Also I think a large part of criticism of these actions are generated by people thinking such actions are racist and hence just wrong and no matter what, unjustifiable. That kind of weak thinking is just not acceptable when China has been openly hostile on so many fronts...

coliveira 6y ago
I don't see this kind of hostility. China is a commercial competitor. The US is trying to transform commercial competition into a racist war. I think this is despicable.
- ipsocannibal 6y ago
  One typical CCP propaganda tactic is make intellectually dishonest accusations of racism to deflect from CCP malfeasance. The CCP has a long history of using seemingly benign interactions with foreign nations as an opportunity for espionage. Scurtiny of all ties to China, especially hidden ties, is just due diligence at this point.
  - evidencebased 6y ago
    One typical American propaganda tactic is to suggest that only communist countries that the US doesn't like are conducting espionage, or that espionage is uncommon in geopolitics. This way, the US government can easily justify discriminatory policies that unjustly targets, say Chinese researchers, to its public. The US has a long history of spying on foreign nations and stealing IP to benefit American businesses. US media has a long history of outright lying and otherwise spreading propaganda to manufacture consent for the government. Any accusations by the US government against other countries should be taken with a giant grain of salt, especially without proof.
    - ipsocannibal 6y ago
      Sounds reasonable. Lets see those investigations from other nations concerning US actions. Please do link to these occurrences as they will further the discussion of the role of espionage in scientific research.
      - fit2rule 6y ago
        Perhaps you've heard of the Crypto AG case, where the CIA infiltrated a foreign company and used its resources to spy on countless other countries, usurp intellectual property from foreign businesses, and used their moles in Crypto AG to give American companies an unfair market advantage: https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/world/national-security/cia-crypto-encryption-machines-espionage/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/world/national-... This was one of Snowden's big revelations - America had been using Crypto AG (a Swiss company) to infiltrate and usurp countless other foreign businesses, to give American companies a distinct advantage - FOR DECADES, since the 70's!!! (Also, it is quite well known that the CIA runs Germany's BND. Does China's intelligence agency run the intelligence agencies of any other sovereign nation, that you know of?) This is the pot. And the kettle is also black, btw.
        bhk 6y ago
        Do you have any evidence of this? I could not find any mention of secrets being shared with companies in the (very long) article you linked.
        fit2rule 6y ago
        Well, you can start your research into this goldmine of details about the USA's many stages of industrial espionage right here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_espionage#Industrial_espionage_as_part_of_US_foreign_policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_espionage#Industria... Find out what Edward Snowden has to say about it: https://www.bbc.com/news/25907502 https://www.bbc.com/news/25907502 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-security-snowden-germany/snowden-says-nsa-engages-in-industrial-espionage-tv-idUSBREA0P0DE20140126 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-security-snowden-germany/... .. and then, if you're still so interested, investigate what was stolen from Siemens (Germany) and Petrobras (Brasil) and France Telecom .. https://www.motherjones.com/politics/1995/05/help-wanted-spying-allies/ https://www.motherjones.com/politics/1995/05/help-wanted-spy... Careful, though. Its probably illegal for American citizens to find out too much about this.
- cle 6y ago
  Many in the US see China as much more than a commercial competitor, but as an ideological and existential threat.
  - evidencebased 6y ago
    Many in the US are brainwashed by the American media empire.
  - magicsmoke 6y ago
    Which really seems like self-projection. America became an ideological and existential threat to many other countries around the world as it grew in power and became a global hegemon. Therefore, China is destined to take the same path as well. Take a look at how proselytization is embedded into Western civilization and not in the civilizations of East Asia and India. Christian missionary activity was a major driving force during the age of colonization as European missionaries raced to convert indigenous peoples because it's for their own good and they'll spend an eternity in hell otherwise. This same drive to convert other peoples for their own good carried over into many other Western ideas like human rights, liberalism, and communism even after people started dropping Christianity. When the philosophical underpinnings of a civilization is based on converting others, and you project that onto everyone else, it's not hard to imagine that as other people become more powerful, they'll focus all their energies on converting you and wiping your beliefs off the map. America thinks of the competition with China like the wars between Christianity and Islam during the crusades, where there can only be one true god. I'm sure China couldn't care less what American society does as long as it's on the other side of the Pacific. The civilizations of China and India do not have that same drive to convert others. You ever see Chinese and Indian foundations trying to spread Chinese and Indian values around the world like America does, and trying to make everyone live and think like Americans? China and India are xenophobic. They don't want you to become Chinese and Indians. They want you to stay as you are and leave them alone. And frankly, in an increasingly globalized world, this attitude of letting others do their own thing in their own part of the world instead of trying to spread their ideas like a virus is probably the best path to coexistence.
- scottLobster 6y ago
  What makes it racist exactly? Because Han Chinese are an ethnic minority in the US? By that logic any country that geopolitically competes with a country with different racial makeup is racist. I guess that means China shouldn't be allowed to geopolitically compete with any nation other than Taiwan and Singapore, given that Han Chinese are an ethnic minority everywhere else. Fine by me if that's your perspective.
- dang 6y ago
  Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar. There isn't nearly enough substance in this comment to enhance a good conversation, and we definitely don't need denunciatory rhetoric. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
knolax 6y ago
Racism is the definition of weak thinking. The idea that you can somehow forgo logic if your goals are sufficiently important is even weaker thinking. The US Government has had a history of targeting (in hindsight) unrelated people in their efforts to "curb foreign influence". See the history of Japanese Internment camps and the McCarthyist Red Scare. This is taught in most US highschools. We even see the same illogical reasoning being carried out in this comment section (ironically by non-Americans), where any argument against this political culling is dismissed as "CCP Propaganda" and any attempt to point out that the tensions between the US and Russia/Japan/China are unnecessary are met with generic references to past "hostilities" but never specific examples.
imglorp 6y ago
It seems CCP's only defense of their actions is to attack critics as racist, which is kind of like a false dichotomy. The reality is it's possible to condemn any given government and its actions and its agents in that capacity, while saying nothing about a people. I agree, their position is so weak as to not withstand debate, so they fear debate and resort to deflections like this.
nn3 6y ago
Such actions have a tendency to back fire. For example read up on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qian_Xuesen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qian_Xuesen This was a scientist who was forced out in the 50ies and he ended up founding modern Chinese rocketry, including their ICBMs. Of course they would have eventually done it anyways, but it would have likely taken longer.
- dominotw 6y ago
  > Of course they would have eventually done it anyways, ut it would have likely taken longer. why? what was he waiting for?
  - sct202 6y ago
    People have plans but get comfortable. How many FAANG engineers have grand startup plans but are comfortable with their jobs that they don't go out and pursue those plans?
    - dominotw 6y ago
      > Such actions have a tendency to back fire. So this conclusion was drawn based on speculation that he was complacent person? > FAANG engineers have grand startup plans but are comfortable with their jobs In this case he got a job with another govt agency( Chinese ) so equivalent would be FANG engineers getting a job in another FANG company, which they do all the time.
  - catalogia 6y ago
    I'm pretty sure that sentence should be parsed as: > Of course [China] would have [had an ICBM program] anyways, but it would have likely taken longer. rather than > Of course [Qian Xuesen] would have [defected] anyways, but it would have likely taken longer.
    - nn3 6y ago
      Yes I was referring to the ICBM program. No idea what Xuesen would have done without McCarthyism, but he might have well ended up staying in the US.
goldforever 6y ago
Agree.

by Magodo 6y ago

coliveira 6y ago

I don't see this kind of hostility. China is a commercial competitor. The US is trying to transform commercial competition into a racist war. I think this is despicable.

ipsocannibal 6y ago
One typical CCP propaganda tactic is make intellectually dishonest accusations of racism to deflect from CCP malfeasance. The CCP has a long history of using seemingly benign interactions with foreign nations as an opportunity for espionage. Scurtiny of all ties to China, especially hidden ties, is just due diligence at this point.
- evidencebased 6y ago
  One typical American propaganda tactic is to suggest that only communist countries that the US doesn't like are conducting espionage, or that espionage is uncommon in geopolitics. This way, the US government can easily justify discriminatory policies that unjustly targets, say Chinese researchers, to its public. The US has a long history of spying on foreign nations and stealing IP to benefit American businesses. US media has a long history of outright lying and otherwise spreading propaganda to manufacture consent for the government. Any accusations by the US government against other countries should be taken with a giant grain of salt, especially without proof.
  - ipsocannibal 6y ago
    Sounds reasonable. Lets see those investigations from other nations concerning US actions. Please do link to these occurrences as they will further the discussion of the role of espionage in scientific research.
    - fit2rule 6y ago
      Perhaps you've heard of the Crypto AG case, where the CIA infiltrated a foreign company and used its resources to spy on countless other countries, usurp intellectual property from foreign businesses, and used their moles in Crypto AG to give American companies an unfair market advantage: https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/world/national-security/cia-crypto-encryption-machines-espionage/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/world/national-... This was one of Snowden's big revelations - America had been using Crypto AG (a Swiss company) to infiltrate and usurp countless other foreign businesses, to give American companies a distinct advantage - FOR DECADES, since the 70's!!! (Also, it is quite well known that the CIA runs Germany's BND. Does China's intelligence agency run the intelligence agencies of any other sovereign nation, that you know of?) This is the pot. And the kettle is also black, btw.
      - bhk 6y ago
        Do you have any evidence of this? I could not find any mention of secrets being shared with companies in the (very long) article you linked.
        fit2rule 6y ago
        Well, you can start your research into this goldmine of details about the USA's many stages of industrial espionage right here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_espionage#Industrial_espionage_as_part_of_US_foreign_policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_espionage#Industria... Find out what Edward Snowden has to say about it: https://www.bbc.com/news/25907502 https://www.bbc.com/news/25907502 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-security-snowden-germany/snowden-says-nsa-engages-in-industrial-espionage-tv-idUSBREA0P0DE20140126 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-security-snowden-germany/... .. and then, if you're still so interested, investigate what was stolen from Siemens (Germany) and Petrobras (Brasil) and France Telecom .. https://www.motherjones.com/politics/1995/05/help-wanted-spying-allies/ https://www.motherjones.com/politics/1995/05/help-wanted-spy... Careful, though. Its probably illegal for American citizens to find out too much about this.
cle 6y ago
Many in the US see China as much more than a commercial competitor, but as an ideological and existential threat.
- evidencebased 6y ago
  Many in the US are brainwashed by the American media empire.
- magicsmoke 6y ago
  Which really seems like self-projection. America became an ideological and existential threat to many other countries around the world as it grew in power and became a global hegemon. Therefore, China is destined to take the same path as well. Take a look at how proselytization is embedded into Western civilization and not in the civilizations of East Asia and India. Christian missionary activity was a major driving force during the age of colonization as European missionaries raced to convert indigenous peoples because it's for their own good and they'll spend an eternity in hell otherwise. This same drive to convert other peoples for their own good carried over into many other Western ideas like human rights, liberalism, and communism even after people started dropping Christianity. When the philosophical underpinnings of a civilization is based on converting others, and you project that onto everyone else, it's not hard to imagine that as other people become more powerful, they'll focus all their energies on converting you and wiping your beliefs off the map. America thinks of the competition with China like the wars between Christianity and Islam during the crusades, where there can only be one true god. I'm sure China couldn't care less what American society does as long as it's on the other side of the Pacific. The civilizations of China and India do not have that same drive to convert others. You ever see Chinese and Indian foundations trying to spread Chinese and Indian values around the world like America does, and trying to make everyone live and think like Americans? China and India are xenophobic. They don't want you to become Chinese and Indians. They want you to stay as you are and leave them alone. And frankly, in an increasingly globalized world, this attitude of letting others do their own thing in their own part of the world instead of trying to spread their ideas like a virus is probably the best path to coexistence.
scottLobster 6y ago
What makes it racist exactly? Because Han Chinese are an ethnic minority in the US? By that logic any country that geopolitically competes with a country with different racial makeup is racist. I guess that means China shouldn't be allowed to geopolitically compete with any nation other than Taiwan and Singapore, given that Han Chinese are an ethnic minority everywhere else. Fine by me if that's your perspective.
dang 6y ago
Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar. There isn't nearly enough substance in this comment to enhance a good conversation, and we definitely don't need denunciatory rhetoric. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

knolax 6y ago

Racism is the definition of weak thinking. The idea that you can somehow forgo logic if your goals are sufficiently important is even weaker thinking. The US Government has had a history of targeting (in hindsight) unrelated people in their efforts to "curb foreign influence". See the history of Japanese Internment camps and the McCarthyist Red Scare. This is taught in most US highschools. We even see the same illogical reasoning being carried out in this comment section (ironically by non-Americans), where any argument against this political culling is dismissed as "CCP Propaganda" and any attempt to point out that the tensions between the US and Russia/Japan/China are unnecessary are met with generic references to past "hostilities" but never specific examples.

imglorp 6y ago

It seems CCP's only defense of their actions is to attack critics as racist, which is kind of like a false dichotomy. The reality is it's possible to condemn any given government and its actions and its agents in that capacity, while saying nothing about a people. I agree, their position is so weak as to not withstand debate, so they fear debate and resort to deflections like this.

nn3 6y ago

Such actions have a tendency to back fire. For example read up on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qian_Xuesen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qian_Xuesen This was a scientist who was forced out in the 50ies and he ended up founding modern Chinese rocketry, including their ICBMs. Of course they would have eventually done it anyways, but it would have likely taken longer.

dominotw 6y ago
> Of course they would have eventually done it anyways, ut it would have likely taken longer. why? what was he waiting for?
- sct202 6y ago
  People have plans but get comfortable. How many FAANG engineers have grand startup plans but are comfortable with their jobs that they don't go out and pursue those plans?
  - dominotw 6y ago
    > Such actions have a tendency to back fire. So this conclusion was drawn based on speculation that he was complacent person? > FAANG engineers have grand startup plans but are comfortable with their jobs In this case he got a job with another govt agency( Chinese ) so equivalent would be FANG engineers getting a job in another FANG company, which they do all the time.
- catalogia 6y ago
  I'm pretty sure that sentence should be parsed as: > Of course [China] would have [had an ICBM program] anyways, but it would have likely taken longer. rather than > Of course [Qian Xuesen] would have [defected] anyways, but it would have likely taken longer.
  - nn3 6y ago
    Yes I was referring to the ICBM program. No idea what Xuesen would have done without McCarthyism, but he might have well ended up staying in the US.

goldforever 6y ago

Agree.