4 ms·

The terms have nothing to do with race.

tchaffee 6y ago
Take away the historical context of the words and how do you know which list is the denylist and which list is the allowlist? "blacklist" first started becoming popular during widespread slavery of Africans for European colonies. If you want to dehumanize and enslave an entire continent, it sure does help to have the word "black" mean "evil". If you are a black American, the word black does mean a lot to you for sure. What's the impact of seeing that word mean "bad" or "evil" or "not allowed" on a regular basis at the workplace? Does that experience have anything to do with race? Whether or not it was about race in the past, it is about race now. "denylist" is both more accurate and fixes a problem that we have right now.
- cameronbrown 6y ago
  The origins do not have anything to do with race: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacklisting#:~:text=Origins%20of%20the%20term,the%20execution%20of%20his%20father https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacklisting#:~:text=Origins%2.... I don't live in America, I don't care about the context there, I don't care to have newspeak forced on me without real evidence it causes harm to people of colour, when all I actually see is white people being offended on behalf of others.
  - tchaffee 6y ago
    > without real evidence it causes harm to people Here is evidence that microagressions cause psychological harm: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1745691619827499?journalCode=ppsa https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/174569161982749.... It's easy to find more where that came from. > when all I actually see is white people being offended on behalf of others. Also easy to find black people who are offended by these terms. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6148600/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6148600/
    - cameronbrown 6y ago
      You've made the massive leap that the words blacklist/whitelist are microaggressions. Not to mention the science of microaggressions is not even remotely settled.
      - tchaffee 6y ago
        > You've made the massive leap that the words blacklist/whitelist are microaggressions. It isn't a massive leap. Kermit A. Crawford, Ph.D talks about these specific terms and that they are microagressions in this presentation: https://www.appic.org/Portals/0/2018%20Conference/APPIC%202018%20%286%20update%205-3%29.pdf https://www.appic.org/Portals/0/2018%20Conference/APPIC%2020.... You can find sources going all the way back to the 1970s talking about these terms and how they relate to racism. It's only a massive leap if you have not done the homework and if you have not talked to black colleagues in our industry about what they consider to be microagressions. > Not to mention the science of microaggressions is not even remotely settled. You are moving the goal posts. You said you don't care to "have newspeak forced on me without real evidence". Then when presented with scholarly studies and real evidence of psychological damage, you claim the evidence is not good enough.
        cameronbrown 6y ago
        > You are moving the goal posts. A reasonable statement, however I don't consider one paper to be enough evidence for restructuring the entire English language to avoid white/black, light/dark concepts. Not to mention academia is a massive political bubble which is clearly influencing the social sciences right now. We're clearly not going to see eye to eye here - but I wish you a good day.
        tchaffee 6y ago
        > restructuring the entire English language That's a strawman. No one is restructuring the entire English language. There is a small list of words used in technology that companies are changing to more accurate words. "denylist" and "allowlist" are clearer in purpose and intent than "blacklist".

Take away the historical context of the words and how do you know which list is the denylist and which list is the allowlist? "blacklist" first started becoming popular during widespread slavery of Africans for European colonies. If you want to dehumanize and enslave an entire continent, it sure does help to have the word "black" mean "evil". If you are a black American, the word black does mean a lot to you for sure. What's the impact of seeing that word mean "bad" or "evil" or "not allowed" on a regular basis at the workplace? Does that experience have anything to do with race? Whether or not it was about race in the past, it is about race now. "denylist" is both more accurate and fixes a problem that we have right now.

cameronbrown 6y ago
The origins do not have anything to do with race: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacklisting#:~:text=Origins%20of%20the%20term,the%20execution%20of%20his%20father https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacklisting#:~:text=Origins%2.... I don't live in America, I don't care about the context there, I don't care to have newspeak forced on me without real evidence it causes harm to people of colour, when all I actually see is white people being offended on behalf of others.
- tchaffee 6y ago
  > without real evidence it causes harm to people Here is evidence that microagressions cause psychological harm: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1745691619827499?journalCode=ppsa https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/174569161982749.... It's easy to find more where that came from. > when all I actually see is white people being offended on behalf of others. Also easy to find black people who are offended by these terms. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6148600/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6148600/
  - cameronbrown 6y ago
    You've made the massive leap that the words blacklist/whitelist are microaggressions. Not to mention the science of microaggressions is not even remotely settled.
    - tchaffee 6y ago
      > You've made the massive leap that the words blacklist/whitelist are microaggressions. It isn't a massive leap. Kermit A. Crawford, Ph.D talks about these specific terms and that they are microagressions in this presentation: https://www.appic.org/Portals/0/2018%20Conference/APPIC%202018%20%286%20update%205-3%29.pdf https://www.appic.org/Portals/0/2018%20Conference/APPIC%2020.... You can find sources going all the way back to the 1970s talking about these terms and how they relate to racism. It's only a massive leap if you have not done the homework and if you have not talked to black colleagues in our industry about what they consider to be microagressions. > Not to mention the science of microaggressions is not even remotely settled. You are moving the goal posts. You said you don't care to "have newspeak forced on me without real evidence". Then when presented with scholarly studies and real evidence of psychological damage, you claim the evidence is not good enough.
      - cameronbrown 6y ago
        > You are moving the goal posts. A reasonable statement, however I don't consider one paper to be enough evidence for restructuring the entire English language to avoid white/black, light/dark concepts. Not to mention academia is a massive political bubble which is clearly influencing the social sciences right now. We're clearly not going to see eye to eye here - but I wish you a good day.
        tchaffee 6y ago
        > restructuring the entire English language That's a strawman. No one is restructuring the entire English language. There is a small list of words used in technology that companies are changing to more accurate words. "denylist" and "allowlist" are clearer in purpose and intent than "blacklist".