11 ms·

Without the racist background, how does one know which list does which? The new names actually describe what they do. The reason it may seem ridiculous is tha

Without the racist background, how does one know which list does which? The new names actually describe what they do. The reason it may seem ridiculous is that racism is very, very deep in American culture. The country's culture goes back hundreds of years and is still slowly working on being less so. Here's an example: https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2014/05/11/310708342/recall-that-ice-cream-truck-song-we-have-unpleasant-news-for-you https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2014/05/11/310708342...

dingle3 6y ago
what's the racist background?
- waheoo 6y ago
  Black people = bad, white people = good. Rosstex posted a good explain below.
  - drdeca 6y ago
    The explanation that Rosstex posted does not refer to “black” people, or to “white” people?
    - libria 6y ago
      By "racist background" they mean "racist association". Perhaps it didn't start that way but due to history it can easily be twisted to be seen as offensive. I can't tattoo a swastika on my arm, despite its origins.
      - drdeca 6y ago
        “Easily twisted to be seen as offensive” is not the same thing as “offensive”. [edit: also, that doesn’t really explain citing Rosstex?] Also, my understanding is that that there are places in the world where the primary associations for a swastika are the earlier ones, not the nazi ones. I don’t see a reason to tell the people living in those places to stop using that symbol amongst themselves (though asking that they not use it in places where it is likely to be genuinely misinterpreted may be reasonable)
- elcomet 6y ago
  Whitelist = allowed list (because white people were allowed in all places). Blacklist = deny list (because black people were denied in many places).
  - dingle3 6y ago
    anything to back this up? my searches mostly come up with either greeks physically using black ballots to vote to excommunicate people, or putting names in a black book in 1600s, which was usually reserved for enemies and most likely was not racially motivated.
  - buzzy_hacker 6y ago
    Genuinely curious, do we have sources for the words used in a specifically racial context?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
drdeca 6y ago
I could be wrong, but I don’t think either term has the etymology tracing back to referring to a person’s race.
- tchaffee 6y ago
  The word black and its etymology has nothing to do with race?
  - drdeca 6y ago
    Well, the etymology of the word “black” is traced back to reconstruction in Proto-Germanic “ blakaz” (“burned”), and proto-indo-European “, thought to mean "to burn, gleam, shine, flash". And these of course are not based on the idea of “race” (which I think is a more recent idea). But I was talking about the use of the word “black” as a negative thing, such as in “blacklist”. Etymologyonline.com says “Meaning "fierce, terrible, wicked" is from late 14c. Figurative senses often come from the notion of "without light," moral or spiritual.” I think this refutes the idea that the metaphorical associations of the word “black” come from associations with race. You say “nothing to do with”. This phrasing seems open to interpretation. Some might say that everything has “something to do with” everything else. Supposing that you agree that the etymology of the word “black” “has nothing to do with” the idea of being a bad cook, then sure.
    - tchaffee 6y ago
      > I think this refutes the idea that the metaphorical associations of the word “black” come from associations with race It would be far more accurate to say this refutes the idea that the original metaphorical associations of the word “black” come from associations with race. US history is full of stories where that original meaning was extended to black people themselves. The metaphorical associations have been useful for over 200 years to a society that maintains systemic racism against black people.
      - drdeca 6y ago
        I don't mean to suggest that the ideas did not interact at any point. But I think it would be incorrect to say that the metaphorical associations of "black" which are present in things like "blacklist" and such, "come from" things based on the idea of "race". To talk about what something "comes from" is to talk about its origins, what it originated from.
mopsi 6y ago
> Without the racist background, how does one know which list does which? By reading the documentation? I'm not a native speaker of English, nor am I from the US, and this is the first time for me to learn that some people see a racist undertone in these words. I just learned them from docs.
Erlich_Bachman 6y ago
> Without the racist background, how does one know which list does which? By basic knowledge of the English language. Terms like "black market", "black death", "black tuesday", etc. etc. By the expressions like "looking at things in black and white". It is a part of language, it has nothing to do with race. These colors are used in the same way in other languages of other countries that don't even have racial slavery history. What is your example supposed to prove? That there were in fact some racist songs? How does that make the whole American culture "racist"? If there is a song saying something bad about males in general, does that make the whole culture of that whole country anti-male for some reason?
- Accacin 6y ago
  I think where I see a difference is that there's no 'white market', 'white death' and 'white Tuesday'. Whereas with black/white list there's a clear separation that even may not be meant as racist, I can definitely see it coming across that way. Black and white thinking is often talking in terms of extremes, which neither being inherently 'better' than the other. It's not for me to say whether the whole of American culture is racist, but I do think the language we use has a lot of power to help people feel less marginalised and having to use some different words is a small price to pay for me.
  - cs02rm0 6y ago
    White magic?
- tchaffee 6y ago
  It sure was convenient that both "black" in English and "niger" in Latin meant "evil" during times of dehumanizing and enslaving others based on the color of their skin. Basic knowledge of the English language also shows us that the word black does have to do with race. It means something for sure to black people. The word black is both a personal identity around race, and it is often used to mean "evil" or "bad" in the modern workplace. While "white" is used to mean "good" in the workplace: whitelist. And white is also a race. I would hope that just about anyone can see why moving away from using black to mean "evil" in the workplace and moving to using more accurate words like denylist is not just easy, it would also make the workplace feel intentionally more welcoming to our black colleagues.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
Wowfunhappy 6y ago
Black fabrics block light, white fabrics allow light. A blacklist is a list of things that should be blocked. A whitelist is a list of things that should be allowed. I never looked at the etymology, but this is how I always thought of it.
hintymad 6y ago
Actually, you're a racist to the bone because everything you see is "very very deep" racism. You turn everyday words into labels that divide people. You just can't see that etymology of a word can have nothing to do with race. You probably can't see that the pain of our black brothers and sisters may, just may, also have come from poverty, prejudice, or in general just class struggles. You're real racist because you automatically label people from different cultural background as racist, without considering if they have racial bias. Italian has Mano Nera, Japanese has 黒幕, multiple languages have "black market", Chinese has 黑心，黑社会. Are they all racists? Are they all guilty of slavery of African Americans? If you're not a racist, then you're nothing more than a Jacobin to the bone. When are you going to call for Guillotine on people who disagree with you? Shame on you.
- qbaqbaqba 6y ago
  People here are extremely americacentric.

dingle3 6y ago

what's the racist background?

waheoo 6y ago
Black people = bad, white people = good. Rosstex posted a good explain below.
- drdeca 6y ago
  The explanation that Rosstex posted does not refer to “black” people, or to “white” people?
  - libria 6y ago
    By "racist background" they mean "racist association". Perhaps it didn't start that way but due to history it can easily be twisted to be seen as offensive. I can't tattoo a swastika on my arm, despite its origins.
    - drdeca 6y ago
      “Easily twisted to be seen as offensive” is not the same thing as “offensive”. [edit: also, that doesn’t really explain citing Rosstex?] Also, my understanding is that that there are places in the world where the primary associations for a swastika are the earlier ones, not the nazi ones. I don’t see a reason to tell the people living in those places to stop using that symbol amongst themselves (though asking that they not use it in places where it is likely to be genuinely misinterpreted may be reasonable)
elcomet 6y ago
Whitelist = allowed list (because white people were allowed in all places). Blacklist = deny list (because black people were denied in many places).
- dingle3 6y ago
  anything to back this up? my searches mostly come up with either greeks physically using black ballots to vote to excommunicate people, or putting names in a black book in 1600s, which was usually reserved for enemies and most likely was not racially motivated.
- buzzy_hacker 6y ago
  Genuinely curious, do we have sources for the words used in a specifically racial context?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

drdeca 6y ago

I could be wrong, but I don’t think either term has the etymology tracing back to referring to a person’s race.

tchaffee 6y ago
The word black and its etymology has nothing to do with race?
- drdeca 6y ago
  Well, the etymology of the word “black” is traced back to reconstruction in Proto-Germanic “ blakaz” (“burned”), and proto-indo-European “, thought to mean "to burn, gleam, shine, flash". And these of course are not based on the idea of “race” (which I think is a more recent idea). But I was talking about the use of the word “black” as a negative thing, such as in “blacklist”. Etymologyonline.com says “Meaning "fierce, terrible, wicked" is from late 14c. Figurative senses often come from the notion of "without light," moral or spiritual.” I think this refutes the idea that the metaphorical associations of the word “black” come from associations with race. You say “nothing to do with”. This phrasing seems open to interpretation. Some might say that everything has “something to do with” everything else. Supposing that you agree that the etymology of the word “black” “has nothing to do with” the idea of being a bad cook, then sure.
  - tchaffee 6y ago
    > I think this refutes the idea that the metaphorical associations of the word “black” come from associations with race It would be far more accurate to say this refutes the idea that the original metaphorical associations of the word “black” come from associations with race. US history is full of stories where that original meaning was extended to black people themselves. The metaphorical associations have been useful for over 200 years to a society that maintains systemic racism against black people.
    - drdeca 6y ago
      I don't mean to suggest that the ideas did not interact at any point. But I think it would be incorrect to say that the metaphorical associations of "black" which are present in things like "blacklist" and such, "come from" things based on the idea of "race". To talk about what something "comes from" is to talk about its origins, what it originated from.

mopsi 6y ago

> Without the racist background, how does one know which list does which? By reading the documentation? I'm not a native speaker of English, nor am I from the US, and this is the first time for me to learn that some people see a racist undertone in these words. I just learned them from docs.

Erlich_Bachman 6y ago

> Without the racist background, how does one know which list does which? By basic knowledge of the English language. Terms like "black market", "black death", "black tuesday", etc. etc. By the expressions like "looking at things in black and white". It is a part of language, it has nothing to do with race. These colors are used in the same way in other languages of other countries that don't even have racial slavery history. What is your example supposed to prove? That there were in fact some racist songs? How does that make the whole American culture "racist"? If there is a song saying something bad about males in general, does that make the whole culture of that whole country anti-male for some reason?

Accacin 6y ago
I think where I see a difference is that there's no 'white market', 'white death' and 'white Tuesday'. Whereas with black/white list there's a clear separation that even may not be meant as racist, I can definitely see it coming across that way. Black and white thinking is often talking in terms of extremes, which neither being inherently 'better' than the other. It's not for me to say whether the whole of American culture is racist, but I do think the language we use has a lot of power to help people feel less marginalised and having to use some different words is a small price to pay for me.
- cs02rm0 6y ago
  White magic?
tchaffee 6y ago
It sure was convenient that both "black" in English and "niger" in Latin meant "evil" during times of dehumanizing and enslaving others based on the color of their skin. Basic knowledge of the English language also shows us that the word black does have to do with race. It means something for sure to black people. The word black is both a personal identity around race, and it is often used to mean "evil" or "bad" in the modern workplace. While "white" is used to mean "good" in the workplace: whitelist. And white is also a race. I would hope that just about anyone can see why moving away from using black to mean "evil" in the workplace and moving to using more accurate words like denylist is not just easy, it would also make the workplace feel intentionally more welcoming to our black colleagues.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

Wowfunhappy 6y ago

Black fabrics block light, white fabrics allow light. A blacklist is a list of things that should be blocked. A whitelist is a list of things that should be allowed. I never looked at the etymology, but this is how I always thought of it.

hintymad 6y ago

Actually, you're a racist to the bone because everything you see is "very very deep" racism. You turn everyday words into labels that divide people. You just can't see that etymology of a word can have nothing to do with race. You probably can't see that the pain of our black brothers and sisters may, just may, also have come from poverty, prejudice, or in general just class struggles. You're real racist because you automatically label people from different cultural background as racist, without considering if they have racial bias. Italian has Mano Nera, Japanese has 黒幕, multiple languages have "black market", Chinese has 黑心，黑社会. Are they all racists? Are they all guilty of slavery of African Americans? If you're not a racist, then you're nothing more than a Jacobin to the bone. When are you going to call for Guillotine on people who disagree with you? Shame on you.

qbaqbaqba 6y ago
People here are extremely americacentric.