6 ms·

Makes sense, better wording and less racist.

by mavhc 6y ago

mirthflat83 6y ago
Nothing about those terms are racist. What’s next, renaming the color “black”?
- Kiro 6y ago
  No, but I've heard a lot of people saying we should stop using "dark" and "black" in association with evil, e.g. black magic or dark thoughts. I'm not saying it's the right or wrong thing to do.
  - drdeca 6y ago
    I would guess that such associations have long existed, including in places where most people have dark skin, and are not based in the idea of “race”.
- moritonal 6y ago
  Maybe it's work thinking about why the term "black" denotes not being able to do something.
- tchaffee 6y ago
  Using black to mean evil or bad in a modern workplace is a microagression and is racist. Microagressions are well studied and the evidence points to it resulting psychological damage [1] [2]. The term "blacklist" started more frequently occurring at the time of mass enslavement and forced deportation of Africans to work in European-held colonies in the Americas. So even the historical context does not support that the term is completely lacking of racist motives. If you are going to dehumanize and enslave an entire continent, it would certainly help your cause if their skin color continues to be associated with "evil". Consider also that the Latin word "niger" had many of the same figurative senses ("gloomy; unlucky; bad, wicked, malicious") as black is often used to mean. We don't need to rename the color black. What we do need to do is to stop using it to mean "bad" or "evil" and using white to mean "good" when there are actually far better and clearer words. Denylist says exactly what it does. Blacklist far less so, unless we are happy with continuing to use the word "black" to mean "evil". I leave it up to the reader to decide how it might psychologically affect someone if their skin color also means evil, and they are reminded of this on a regular basis by words used at work. [1] https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1745691619827499?journalCode=ppsa https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/174569161982749... [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6148600/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6148600/
- tzs 6y ago
  That's actually been done, although it was more a case of someone not putting enough thought into their assignment than actually trying to rename a color. Target once sold a children's desk that was available in white or black. One day, that changed to being available in white or African-American. Target was made fun of for a few days on the internet over that, and presumably some employee learned that when a word has multiple meanings and you are only trying to replace one of those meanings, s/word/replacement/g is not the right approach. I'd expect that employee also got kidded about it for years afterwards, like if he's going to play a game of chess with a co-worker on their lunch break getting asked if he wants to play white or African-American, or if he shows up at a Halloween costume party as a pirate getting asked if he's African-American Beard.
  - mnm1 6y ago
    Not all black people, even in America, are African Americans. Which makes the term wrong even for people. This is a whole new level of stupidity, however, on par with say renaming the git master branch.
cameronbrown 6y ago
The terms have nothing to do with race.
- tchaffee 6y ago
  Take away the historical context of the words and how do you know which list is the denylist and which list is the allowlist? "blacklist" first started becoming popular during widespread slavery of Africans for European colonies. If you want to dehumanize and enslave an entire continent, it sure does help to have the word "black" mean "evil". If you are a black American, the word black does mean a lot to you for sure. What's the impact of seeing that word mean "bad" or "evil" or "not allowed" on a regular basis at the workplace? Does that experience have anything to do with race? Whether or not it was about race in the past, it is about race now. "denylist" is both more accurate and fixes a problem that we have right now.
  - cameronbrown 6y ago
    The origins do not have anything to do with race: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacklisting#:~:text=Origins%20of%20the%20term,the%20execution%20of%20his%20father https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacklisting#:~:text=Origins%2.... I don't live in America, I don't care about the context there, I don't care to have newspeak forced on me without real evidence it causes harm to people of colour, when all I actually see is white people being offended on behalf of others.
    - tchaffee 6y ago
      > without real evidence it causes harm to people Here is evidence that microagressions cause psychological harm: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1745691619827499?journalCode=ppsa https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/174569161982749.... It's easy to find more where that came from. > when all I actually see is white people being offended on behalf of others. Also easy to find black people who are offended by these terms. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6148600/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6148600/

Makes sense, better wording and less racist.

by mavhc 6y ago

Makes sense, better wording and less racist.

mirthflat83 6y ago

Nothing about those terms are racist. What’s next, renaming the color “black”?

Kiro 6y ago
No, but I've heard a lot of people saying we should stop using "dark" and "black" in association with evil, e.g. black magic or dark thoughts. I'm not saying it's the right or wrong thing to do.
- drdeca 6y ago
  I would guess that such associations have long existed, including in places where most people have dark skin, and are not based in the idea of “race”.
moritonal 6y ago
Maybe it's work thinking about why the term "black" denotes not being able to do something.
tchaffee 6y ago
Using black to mean evil or bad in a modern workplace is a microagression and is racist. Microagressions are well studied and the evidence points to it resulting psychological damage [1] [2]. The term "blacklist" started more frequently occurring at the time of mass enslavement and forced deportation of Africans to work in European-held colonies in the Americas. So even the historical context does not support that the term is completely lacking of racist motives. If you are going to dehumanize and enslave an entire continent, it would certainly help your cause if their skin color continues to be associated with "evil". Consider also that the Latin word "niger" had many of the same figurative senses ("gloomy; unlucky; bad, wicked, malicious") as black is often used to mean. We don't need to rename the color black. What we do need to do is to stop using it to mean "bad" or "evil" and using white to mean "good" when there are actually far better and clearer words. Denylist says exactly what it does. Blacklist far less so, unless we are happy with continuing to use the word "black" to mean "evil". I leave it up to the reader to decide how it might psychologically affect someone if their skin color also means evil, and they are reminded of this on a regular basis by words used at work. [1] https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1745691619827499?journalCode=ppsa https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/174569161982749... [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6148600/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6148600/
tzs 6y ago
That's actually been done, although it was more a case of someone not putting enough thought into their assignment than actually trying to rename a color. Target once sold a children's desk that was available in white or black. One day, that changed to being available in white or African-American. Target was made fun of for a few days on the internet over that, and presumably some employee learned that when a word has multiple meanings and you are only trying to replace one of those meanings, s/word/replacement/g is not the right approach. I'd expect that employee also got kidded about it for years afterwards, like if he's going to play a game of chess with a co-worker on their lunch break getting asked if he wants to play white or African-American, or if he shows up at a Halloween costume party as a pirate getting asked if he's African-American Beard.
- mnm1 6y ago
  Not all black people, even in America, are African Americans. Which makes the term wrong even for people. This is a whole new level of stupidity, however, on par with say renaming the git master branch.

cameronbrown 6y ago

The terms have nothing to do with race.

tchaffee 6y ago
Take away the historical context of the words and how do you know which list is the denylist and which list is the allowlist? "blacklist" first started becoming popular during widespread slavery of Africans for European colonies. If you want to dehumanize and enslave an entire continent, it sure does help to have the word "black" mean "evil". If you are a black American, the word black does mean a lot to you for sure. What's the impact of seeing that word mean "bad" or "evil" or "not allowed" on a regular basis at the workplace? Does that experience have anything to do with race? Whether or not it was about race in the past, it is about race now. "denylist" is both more accurate and fixes a problem that we have right now.
- cameronbrown 6y ago
  The origins do not have anything to do with race: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacklisting#:~:text=Origins%20of%20the%20term,the%20execution%20of%20his%20father https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacklisting#:~:text=Origins%2.... I don't live in America, I don't care about the context there, I don't care to have newspeak forced on me without real evidence it causes harm to people of colour, when all I actually see is white people being offended on behalf of others.
  - tchaffee 6y ago
    > without real evidence it causes harm to people Here is evidence that microagressions cause psychological harm: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1745691619827499?journalCode=ppsa https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/174569161982749.... It's easy to find more where that came from. > when all I actually see is white people being offended on behalf of others. Also easy to find black people who are offended by these terms. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6148600/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6148600/