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I worked at Amazon in the early aughts. They had the same non-compete then. I worked around it by going to business school after I left. By the time I took my n

I worked at Amazon in the early aughts. They had the same non-compete then. I worked around it by going to business school after I left. By the time I took my next job, the 18 months had expired. Plan your post employment very carefully -- both financially and career wise when you join one of the big 4. When you receive a salary offer, calculate the actually salary by assuming 18 months of unemployment.

yomly 6y ago
So say you join Amazon and after 1-2 years you're no longer happy, is jumping ship to FNG (+Apple/msft) out of the question? Seems a little overzealous if you are a rank and file
- kube-system 6y ago
  Even in the states where these agreements are enforceable, they usually only are enforceable for a job in the same role, a competitive business, and the same physical location. I worked for a company for about a decade with an agreement like this; the people who left usually got out of it by lying about where they're going, working remotely for a while, or getting their next employer to change their title.
  - xrd 6y ago
    That's interesting. At first glance, I thought you were suggesting "just switch roles completely!" But, you aren't saying that, you are saying the new employer just needs to be clever in creating a role with a different name. But, then again, for some roles a public presence is needed, like public speaking. You can't temporarily have the role of "janitor" and go out and speak authoritatively about AWS at a conference with that role. Maybe people will get the joke after understanding the true state of these agreements. Wait, do we even have conferences anymore?
    - swyx 6y ago
      lying is just never a good strategy. everyone talks.
      - kube-system 6y ago
        Maybe. Are you important enough to get administrative attention after you're gone, or does your HR department only care as much as they have to complete their offboarding checklist?
      - stale2002 6y ago
        People may talk, but the reality is that nobody is listening. Companies are not sending private detectives, to follow engineers to their new job, and finding out specifically what they are working on, and if the contract is enforceable or not. Mostly, people just forget about you, once you leave. People get away with lying all the time.
    - kube-system 6y ago
      > You can't temporarily have the role of "janitor" and go out and speak authoritatively about AWS at a conference with that role. It is my understanding that you can often get away with being a lot more subtle than that. Things like throwing a proprietary product name in your title, a title that sounds more like a manager, etc.
    - chilukrn 6y ago
      Not "AWS specialist" to janitor, but AWS to "cloud deployment engineer" or simply "member of technical staff "
  - djsumdog 6y ago
    But you don't want to ever be put in that position.
  - goodcanadian 6y ago
    I forget the details because, frankly, it had no impact on me, but at one company, I remember a new executive simply not being able to fulfill some of the duties of his new role for several months until his non-compete expired. If the company wants you bad enough, they will find a way to make it work.
- guitarsteve 6y ago
  I and many of my colleagues worried about non competes at Amazon. But mine wasn’t enforced and I’ve never heard of a “rank and file” individual contributor or non-exec manager having it enforced. My impression is it’s only worth it for VPs or other very high level employees. But the scare tactics evidently do work, in terms of scaring employees to stay or to jump through extra hoops (moving states even if they don’t want to) to avoid enforcement. Has anyone here had a company try to enforce their non compete, and can share their insights?
  - HelloNurse 6y ago
    I've only heard of noncompete agreements being enforced out of spite against someone who has quit on bad terms, not because of a genuine interest for noncompetition.
- Pfhreak 6y ago
  When I was leaving Amazon, the logic was generally -- don't go to the same org in a different company. E.g. if you work in S3, don't go to Google Cloud Storage. If you land in ads or maps or search or whatever, that should be fine. Though, it's really up to Amazon whether they want to keep you unemployed for 18 months, which is (in my mind) totally unethical to even have in the contract in the first place.
_jal 6y ago
Come to California, where the monocle & mustache-twirling set has been forced to settle for slightly less control of the lower castes.
- sumanthvepa 6y ago
  Actually, I'm so glad I now live in India. Non-competes have absolutely no-validity, and good luck trying to enforce one.
  - rb2k_ 6y ago
    Same in California. For people that want the details: https://california.public.law/codes/ca_bus_and_prof_code_section_16600#:~:text=California%20Business%20and,Sec.&text=16600,is%20to%20that%20extent%20void https://california.public.law/codes/ca_bus_and_prof_code_sec.... California Business & Professions Code section 16600 makes clear that any non-compete provision between employer and employee will not be enforceable under California law
    - djsumdog 6y ago
      Yep, I've seen contracts where they say "Clause x/y doesn't apply in the State of California" and then the employer try to tell me "Well, it's not a non-compete" .. bullshit. It clearly is.
  - flak48 6y ago
    Doesn't stop them from including the clause in the contract though. (Though nothing is actually enforcable in India like you said, simply because you would probably be retired before the case would get a court date)
    - systemBuilder 6y ago
      Just proves that lawyering is the continuation of bullying after your youth has expired
    - gnopgnip 6y ago
CydeWeys 6y ago
> Plan your post employment very carefully -- both financially and career wise when you join one of the big 4. This is only true of Amazon. As far as I'm aware, none of the others have non-competes (Google certainly doesn't). So maybe the more succinct advice is, just don't work for Amazon.
- djsumdog 6y ago
  I'm pretty sure Google does depending on which State you work in. If it's in California, it's illegal, but if you get hired by Google of NY, they have no restrictions there, so it's probably in that contract. I'm not sure what happens if you're hired in California and then transfer somewhere else.
  - mikro2nd 6y ago
    Likewise, if you get hired by Amazon in Cape Town, it's illegal. In South Africa non-competes are only legally valid for top-tier exec-level positions, and even then maybe not.
    - pinkfoot 6y ago
      This is incorrect, non-competes in South Africa (I got advice on it once for a gig there) are enforcable is they are reasonable. For example, if the company pays you your old salary for a year after you leave, the non-compete with be enforceable. If they just part ways with no reasonable exchange of value for the non-compete period, all you have to claim is this is how you make your crust. Those folk have a serious legal consititution.
  - fhrow4484 6y ago
    That's false. Since it's Washington State we're talking about: Googlers who join in WA state do not have a Non-compete in their contract (at least the "rank and file" engineers), even though Google could add it and Amazon/Microsoft have one. In fact Google took it a step further and tried to lobby to get non-compete banned in WA State: There was an almost full-ban on non-compete that was proposed a few years ago in Washington State. Google came to the public hearings with full support for the law as it is (which make sense given the status for non compete in California - and how it had gotten sued by Microsoft over one employee, and now again by Amazon). The law would have made it that non-compete are void if laid-off, and void if over 1 year max or if you're not an executive employee. But Microsoft, Amazon, and the hospitals lobbied hard against it. (Hospitals are using those non-competes on both nurses and doctors apparently) So the bill got rewritten where it only applies to people with a total comp less than 185k, and where student debt could be subtracted to that 185k. This, again, got fought more by opponents. Now the ban on non compete only applies to people whose yearly salary (total comp as listed on W-2) is less than 100k, So doctors and tech workers at those companies get nothing out of it, except the clarification that non compete: - cannot be for longer than 18 months - if employee is laid off and non compete is enforced, the company must pay base salary for the duration of non-compete. Geekwire had a good coverage of it over the years: https://www.geekwire.com/2016/non-compete-bill-stalls-washington-state-opposition-business-groups/ https://www.geekwire.com/2016/non-compete-bill-stalls-washin... https://www.geekwire.com/2018/effort-kill-non-competes-washington-state-fails-leaving-controversial-contracts-intact/ https://www.geekwire.com/2018/effort-kill-non-competes-washi... https://www.geekwire.com/2019/tech-leaders-sound-off-washington-states-new-non-compete-restrictions/ https://www.geekwire.com/2019/tech-leaders-sound-off-washing... And the original bills: http://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/biennium/2015-16/Pdf/Bills/House%20Bills/2931.pdf http://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/biennium/2015-16/Pdf/Bills/Hou... http://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/biennium/2017-18/Pdf/Bills/House%20Bills/1967.pdf http://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/biennium/2017-18/Pdf/Bills/Hou... final bill: https://app.leg.wa.gov/billsummary?BillNumber=1450&Initiative=false&Year=2019 https://app.leg.wa.gov/billsummary?BillNumber=1450&Initiativ...
sonicggg 6y ago
Why is that you, and other people here, are treating a contract like it's law? Companies can put pretty much anything they want in a contract, it does not mean its enforceable. You have to take into account your jurisdiction.
- sgc 6y ago
  Somehow I think the legal bills fighting Amazon will be higher than any lost pay, and you might not win.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- Frost1x 6y ago
  There are a lot of people who simply don't have the resources to fight a non-compete clause. Do you think a fresh grad working at Amazon 1-2 years in an SWE role is equipped to take on Amazon's undoubtedly massive top talented legal team if they choose to litigate? The law may be on their side but the resources to pursue it may not and any reasonable doubt of being incorrect could be financial or even career suicide. If a business can get even a small fraction of its labor to follow unenforcable/essentially illegal requirements, they've made significant headway, even if they don't ever choose to attempt to litigate. Over time, those practices can become normalized and set industry standards where they become more and more successful. I think it should be illegal to even stipulate such requirements in contracts to begin with to prevent businesses from eroding labor rights over time. There should be massive fines in place that penalize even stipulating those sort of clauses to make sure businesses only include reasonable language/requirements.
  - ryandrake 6y ago
    This is ultimately what it comes down to. Contracts between very rich/powerful entities and relatively poor/powerless entities, in practice, can contain anything the rich/powerful entity wants because the poor/powerless entity cannot afford litigation. Cell phone contracts, car leases, employment agreements, basically anything written by a company and targeting an individual--just read one of them. All the clauses protect and benefit the company, and very little good is in there for the individual. And they are take-it-or-leave-it: There's generally no negotiation or ability to add individual-favoring terms [1]. Try negotiating the legal terms in your cable bill and let me know how that worked out for you. Contracts among equals tend to be more fair because each side is on a level playing field. 1: Yes, I am aware that there are a few software engineers out there with specialized skills who have successfully managed to negotiate some non-salary terms out of their employment agreements. Congratulations, you are not representative of the general employee population.
lawnchair_larry 6y ago
What do you mean by Big 4? I thought that was an accounting industry thing.
outside1234 6y ago
Or just don’t work for Amazon. I don’t know of any of any such clause at Microsoft or Google.
- my123 6y ago
  I had a 6 months no-compete at Microsoft.
  - DenisM 6y ago
    Do they ever enforce it?
    - my123 6y ago
      Never heard of it being enforced.
corporateslave5 6y ago
Lol what? You can easily with to another FAANG from amazon
- lowiqengineer 6y ago
  I think the implication is the average engineer at Amazon isn't capable of getting into another FAANG, because Amazon is the easiest/least well paying company in FAANG.
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yomly 6y ago

So say you join Amazon and after 1-2 years you're no longer happy, is jumping ship to FNG (+Apple/msft) out of the question? Seems a little overzealous if you are a rank and file

kube-system 6y ago
Even in the states where these agreements are enforceable, they usually only are enforceable for a job in the same role, a competitive business, and the same physical location. I worked for a company for about a decade with an agreement like this; the people who left usually got out of it by lying about where they're going, working remotely for a while, or getting their next employer to change their title.
- xrd 6y ago
  That's interesting. At first glance, I thought you were suggesting "just switch roles completely!" But, you aren't saying that, you are saying the new employer just needs to be clever in creating a role with a different name. But, then again, for some roles a public presence is needed, like public speaking. You can't temporarily have the role of "janitor" and go out and speak authoritatively about AWS at a conference with that role. Maybe people will get the joke after understanding the true state of these agreements. Wait, do we even have conferences anymore?
  - swyx 6y ago
    lying is just never a good strategy. everyone talks.
    - kube-system 6y ago
      Maybe. Are you important enough to get administrative attention after you're gone, or does your HR department only care as much as they have to complete their offboarding checklist?
    - stale2002 6y ago
      People may talk, but the reality is that nobody is listening. Companies are not sending private detectives, to follow engineers to their new job, and finding out specifically what they are working on, and if the contract is enforceable or not. Mostly, people just forget about you, once you leave. People get away with lying all the time.
  - kube-system 6y ago
    > You can't temporarily have the role of "janitor" and go out and speak authoritatively about AWS at a conference with that role. It is my understanding that you can often get away with being a lot more subtle than that. Things like throwing a proprietary product name in your title, a title that sounds more like a manager, etc.
  - chilukrn 6y ago
    Not "AWS specialist" to janitor, but AWS to "cloud deployment engineer" or simply "member of technical staff "
- djsumdog 6y ago
  But you don't want to ever be put in that position.
- goodcanadian 6y ago
  I forget the details because, frankly, it had no impact on me, but at one company, I remember a new executive simply not being able to fulfill some of the duties of his new role for several months until his non-compete expired. If the company wants you bad enough, they will find a way to make it work.
guitarsteve 6y ago
I and many of my colleagues worried about non competes at Amazon. But mine wasn’t enforced and I’ve never heard of a “rank and file” individual contributor or non-exec manager having it enforced. My impression is it’s only worth it for VPs or other very high level employees. But the scare tactics evidently do work, in terms of scaring employees to stay or to jump through extra hoops (moving states even if they don’t want to) to avoid enforcement. Has anyone here had a company try to enforce their non compete, and can share their insights?
- HelloNurse 6y ago
  I've only heard of noncompete agreements being enforced out of spite against someone who has quit on bad terms, not because of a genuine interest for noncompetition.
Pfhreak 6y ago
When I was leaving Amazon, the logic was generally -- don't go to the same org in a different company. E.g. if you work in S3, don't go to Google Cloud Storage. If you land in ads or maps or search or whatever, that should be fine. Though, it's really up to Amazon whether they want to keep you unemployed for 18 months, which is (in my mind) totally unethical to even have in the contract in the first place.

_jal 6y ago

Come to California, where the monocle & mustache-twirling set has been forced to settle for slightly less control of the lower castes.

sumanthvepa 6y ago
Actually, I'm so glad I now live in India. Non-competes have absolutely no-validity, and good luck trying to enforce one.
- rb2k_ 6y ago
  Same in California. For people that want the details: https://california.public.law/codes/ca_bus_and_prof_code_section_16600#:~:text=California%20Business%20and,Sec.&text=16600,is%20to%20that%20extent%20void https://california.public.law/codes/ca_bus_and_prof_code_sec.... California Business & Professions Code section 16600 makes clear that any non-compete provision between employer and employee will not be enforceable under California law
  - djsumdog 6y ago
    Yep, I've seen contracts where they say "Clause x/y doesn't apply in the State of California" and then the employer try to tell me "Well, it's not a non-compete" .. bullshit. It clearly is.
- flak48 6y ago
  Doesn't stop them from including the clause in the contract though. (Though nothing is actually enforcable in India like you said, simply because you would probably be retired before the case would get a court date)
  - systemBuilder 6y ago
    Just proves that lawyering is the continuation of bullying after your youth has expired
  - gnopgnip 6y ago

CydeWeys 6y ago

> Plan your post employment very carefully -- both financially and career wise when you join one of the big 4. This is only true of Amazon. As far as I'm aware, none of the others have non-competes (Google certainly doesn't). So maybe the more succinct advice is, just don't work for Amazon.

djsumdog 6y ago
I'm pretty sure Google does depending on which State you work in. If it's in California, it's illegal, but if you get hired by Google of NY, they have no restrictions there, so it's probably in that contract. I'm not sure what happens if you're hired in California and then transfer somewhere else.
- mikro2nd 6y ago
  Likewise, if you get hired by Amazon in Cape Town, it's illegal. In South Africa non-competes are only legally valid for top-tier exec-level positions, and even then maybe not.
  - pinkfoot 6y ago
    This is incorrect, non-competes in South Africa (I got advice on it once for a gig there) are enforcable is they are reasonable. For example, if the company pays you your old salary for a year after you leave, the non-compete with be enforceable. If they just part ways with no reasonable exchange of value for the non-compete period, all you have to claim is this is how you make your crust. Those folk have a serious legal consititution.
- fhrow4484 6y ago
  That's false. Since it's Washington State we're talking about: Googlers who join in WA state do not have a Non-compete in their contract (at least the "rank and file" engineers), even though Google could add it and Amazon/Microsoft have one. In fact Google took it a step further and tried to lobby to get non-compete banned in WA State: There was an almost full-ban on non-compete that was proposed a few years ago in Washington State. Google came to the public hearings with full support for the law as it is (which make sense given the status for non compete in California - and how it had gotten sued by Microsoft over one employee, and now again by Amazon). The law would have made it that non-compete are void if laid-off, and void if over 1 year max or if you're not an executive employee. But Microsoft, Amazon, and the hospitals lobbied hard against it. (Hospitals are using those non-competes on both nurses and doctors apparently) So the bill got rewritten where it only applies to people with a total comp less than 185k, and where student debt could be subtracted to that 185k. This, again, got fought more by opponents. Now the ban on non compete only applies to people whose yearly salary (total comp as listed on W-2) is less than 100k, So doctors and tech workers at those companies get nothing out of it, except the clarification that non compete: - cannot be for longer than 18 months - if employee is laid off and non compete is enforced, the company must pay base salary for the duration of non-compete. Geekwire had a good coverage of it over the years: https://www.geekwire.com/2016/non-compete-bill-stalls-washington-state-opposition-business-groups/ https://www.geekwire.com/2016/non-compete-bill-stalls-washin... https://www.geekwire.com/2018/effort-kill-non-competes-washington-state-fails-leaving-controversial-contracts-intact/ https://www.geekwire.com/2018/effort-kill-non-competes-washi... https://www.geekwire.com/2019/tech-leaders-sound-off-washington-states-new-non-compete-restrictions/ https://www.geekwire.com/2019/tech-leaders-sound-off-washing... And the original bills: http://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/biennium/2015-16/Pdf/Bills/House%20Bills/2931.pdf http://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/biennium/2015-16/Pdf/Bills/Hou... http://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/biennium/2017-18/Pdf/Bills/House%20Bills/1967.pdf http://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/biennium/2017-18/Pdf/Bills/Hou... final bill: https://app.leg.wa.gov/billsummary?BillNumber=1450&Initiative=false&Year=2019 https://app.leg.wa.gov/billsummary?BillNumber=1450&Initiativ...

sonicggg 6y ago

Why is that you, and other people here, are treating a contract like it's law? Companies can put pretty much anything they want in a contract, it does not mean its enforceable. You have to take into account your jurisdiction.

sgc 6y ago
Somehow I think the legal bills fighting Amazon will be higher than any lost pay, and you might not win.
deleted 6y ago
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Frost1x 6y ago
There are a lot of people who simply don't have the resources to fight a non-compete clause. Do you think a fresh grad working at Amazon 1-2 years in an SWE role is equipped to take on Amazon's undoubtedly massive top talented legal team if they choose to litigate? The law may be on their side but the resources to pursue it may not and any reasonable doubt of being incorrect could be financial or even career suicide. If a business can get even a small fraction of its labor to follow unenforcable/essentially illegal requirements, they've made significant headway, even if they don't ever choose to attempt to litigate. Over time, those practices can become normalized and set industry standards where they become more and more successful. I think it should be illegal to even stipulate such requirements in contracts to begin with to prevent businesses from eroding labor rights over time. There should be massive fines in place that penalize even stipulating those sort of clauses to make sure businesses only include reasonable language/requirements.
- ryandrake 6y ago
  This is ultimately what it comes down to. Contracts between very rich/powerful entities and relatively poor/powerless entities, in practice, can contain anything the rich/powerful entity wants because the poor/powerless entity cannot afford litigation. Cell phone contracts, car leases, employment agreements, basically anything written by a company and targeting an individual--just read one of them. All the clauses protect and benefit the company, and very little good is in there for the individual. And they are take-it-or-leave-it: There's generally no negotiation or ability to add individual-favoring terms [1]. Try negotiating the legal terms in your cable bill and let me know how that worked out for you. Contracts among equals tend to be more fair because each side is on a level playing field. 1: Yes, I am aware that there are a few software engineers out there with specialized skills who have successfully managed to negotiate some non-salary terms out of their employment agreements. Congratulations, you are not representative of the general employee population.

lawnchair_larry 6y ago

What do you mean by Big 4? I thought that was an accounting industry thing.

outside1234 6y ago

Or just don’t work for Amazon. I don’t know of any of any such clause at Microsoft or Google.

my123 6y ago
I had a 6 months no-compete at Microsoft.
- DenisM 6y ago
  Do they ever enforce it?
  - my123 6y ago
    Never heard of it being enforced.

corporateslave5 6y ago

Lol what? You can easily with to another FAANG from amazon

lowiqengineer 6y ago
I think the implication is the average engineer at Amazon isn't capable of getting into another FAANG, because Amazon is the easiest/least well paying company in FAANG.

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