5 ms·

How about this idiocy? https://9to5google.com/2020/06/12/google-android-chrome-blacklist-blocklist-more-inclusive/ https://9to5google.com/2020/06/12/google-and

by psexec 6y ago

How about this idiocy? https://9to5google.com/2020/06/12/google-android-chrome-blacklist-blocklist-more-inclusive/ https://9to5google.com/2020/06/12/google-android-chrome-blac...

mcny 6y ago
You’ll have to think and decide for yourself whether this is idiocy. I, for one, do not. The master/slave thing is stupid. The master branch in git is idiotic. Whitelist and blacklist, I can do without.
- andromeduck 6y ago
  Yeah I think the master for git comes from mastering/master-image/master-tape which comes from the master = main/leading definition which doesn't necessarily imply a connection to master/slave. The black/white list seems to be more out of a day/light/dawn = good/pure/safe and night/dark/dusk = bad/corrupt/dangerous theme common to many cultures. Either way though, can't really go wrong with more descriptive/functional names.
ben_w 6y ago
That’s not an example of idiocy. Idiocy would be an anecdote my father told me in the mid-90s about his workplace trying to implement the same spirit with a naïve global search-and-replace, leading very quickly to a company-wide invitation to an “African-American tie dinner”. But even that isn’t anti-accessibility.
- hackissimo123 6y ago
  I believe the preferred term these days is "tie dinner of color"
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
noisem4ker 6y ago
I'm not against the effort just because "block-list" and "allow-list" are more speaking and self-evident in their meaning. Insinuating that "black-list" and "white-list" are somehow racially charged terms is the idiotic part.
riedel 6y ago
Its a decision I tend to respect (would actually never though of this myself). I don't think it patronizes the users in contrast to the decision like mentioned in the OP. Awareness of language is not all bad as it will influence us subconsciously. We seemingly did not need the term much in the 80s with the ending of the cold war, so IMHO it is not a huge loss: https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=whitelist&year_start=1800&year_end=2005&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cwhitelist%3B%2Cc0 https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=whitelist&year... Without mentioning other connotations, IMHO the rise of computers have in places supported discriminating (ie. 0 vs 1) culture, because that is simply what computers can do best. If just renaming terms changes changes this can in fact be doubted. I am actually not so happy about the consequences of hiding URLs to people. This will also change how we will perceive the Internet but IMHO not for the good. And here the motivations are not as clearly communicated here. It might actually hide some of the beautiful heterogenity and complexity of the Internet to the average user also with unforeseeable consequences.
tchaffee 6y ago
Changing from blacklist and whitelist to blocklist and allowlist is one of the many small things we can do that makes our black colleagues feel seen, heard, and welcome in our workplaces. I support it. No one thinks changing language is enough to eliminate the systemic racism oppressing black people in the US. Eliminating that will require work and personal change. If you can't even stop using black to mean negative in the workplace and substitute it with more accurate words - the new words are clearer - then you likely are not prepared for the real work ahead. I personally refuse to work for any company that is not committing to that work.
- krzyk 6y ago
  Why would anyone be offended by blacklist? Would they be also offended by the color black? Or maybe dark mode, that is getting popular? Or maybe offended by the fact that most pages on the web have light/white theme? This is getting ridiculous (together with github ditching the name "master" - https://twitter.com/natfriedman/status/1271253144442253312 https://twitter.com/natfriedman/status/1271253144442253312), maybe it is the result of too much working from home recently - people create problems where there are none. What is even more funny is the fact that those changes are proposed by white guys without any complains from the black folks.
  - tchaffee 6y ago
    > Why would anyone be offended by blacklist? Because of its etymology and history [1] for starters: n. also black-list, black list, “list of persons who have incurred suspicion,” 1610s, from black (adj.), here indicative of disgrace, censure, punishment (attested from 1590s, in black book) + list (n.). Specifically of employers’ list of workers considered troublesome (usually for union activity) is from 1888. As a verb, from 1718. Related: Blacklisted; blacklisting. [32] "It is notable that the first recorded use of the term occurs at the time of mass enslavement and forced deportation of Africans to work in European-held colonies in the Americas." > Or maybe dark mode Dark mode is not used in a negative way like "blacklist" or "blackballed". And it accurately describes exactly what happens. Unlike "blacklist" which is an inaccurate idiom that relies on "black" being used to mean "bad". So no, I doubt "dark mode" would offend anyone. > Why would anyone be offended You could start by learning about microagressions [2]. This one covers "blacklist" specifically. And was presented by a black man if that helps you with credibility. > This is getting ridiculous I agree that systemic racism has gone on for far too long. Even conservative four star US generals are starting to say we need big changes in society. > What is even more funny is the fact that those changes are proposed by white guys without any complains from the black folks. You are wrong. Just as one small counter-example the presentation I already cited that discusses "blacklist" was made by a black man. Anecdotal, but my black friends have sent me many resources recently about how to become a better anti-racist. Our diversity initiative at my current client is being lead by a black employee. This is coming from oppressed black people who have been very visibly protesting injustice for over two weeks now for the most recent injustice. And for decades actually for anyone who has been listening. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6148600/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6148600/ [2] https://www.appic.org/Portals/0/2018%20Conference/APPIC%202018%20%286%20update%205-3%29.pdf https://www.appic.org/Portals/0/2018%20Conference/APPIC%2020...
likeclockwork 6y ago
The white:black :: good:evil dichotomy has been open to criticism since one group of people labeled themselves white and another group of people black. That was when the colors became politicized.
- TeMPOraL 6y ago
  That dichotomy is older than politics, and has more to do with day being safer than night for diurnal animals like humans.

by psexec 6y ago

How about this idiocy? https://9to5google.com/2020/06/12/google-android-chrome-blacklist-blocklist-more-inclusive/ https://9to5google.com/2020/06/12/google-android-chrome-blac...

mcny 6y ago

You’ll have to think and decide for yourself whether this is idiocy. I, for one, do not. The master/slave thing is stupid. The master branch in git is idiotic. Whitelist and blacklist, I can do without.

andromeduck 6y ago
Yeah I think the master for git comes from mastering/master-image/master-tape which comes from the master = main/leading definition which doesn't necessarily imply a connection to master/slave. The black/white list seems to be more out of a day/light/dawn = good/pure/safe and night/dark/dusk = bad/corrupt/dangerous theme common to many cultures. Either way though, can't really go wrong with more descriptive/functional names.

ben_w 6y ago

That’s not an example of idiocy. Idiocy would be an anecdote my father told me in the mid-90s about his workplace trying to implement the same spirit with a naïve global search-and-replace, leading very quickly to a company-wide invitation to an “African-American tie dinner”. But even that isn’t anti-accessibility.

hackissimo123 6y ago
I believe the preferred term these days is "tie dinner of color"
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

noisem4ker 6y ago

I'm not against the effort just because "block-list" and "allow-list" are more speaking and self-evident in their meaning. Insinuating that "black-list" and "white-list" are somehow racially charged terms is the idiotic part.

riedel 6y ago

Its a decision I tend to respect (would actually never though of this myself). I don't think it patronizes the users in contrast to the decision like mentioned in the OP. Awareness of language is not all bad as it will influence us subconsciously. We seemingly did not need the term much in the 80s with the ending of the cold war, so IMHO it is not a huge loss: https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=whitelist&year_start=1800&year_end=2005&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cwhitelist%3B%2Cc0 https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=whitelist&year... Without mentioning other connotations, IMHO the rise of computers have in places supported discriminating (ie. 0 vs 1) culture, because that is simply what computers can do best. If just renaming terms changes changes this can in fact be doubted. I am actually not so happy about the consequences of hiding URLs to people. This will also change how we will perceive the Internet but IMHO not for the good. And here the motivations are not as clearly communicated here. It might actually hide some of the beautiful heterogenity and complexity of the Internet to the average user also with unforeseeable consequences.

tchaffee 6y ago

Changing from blacklist and whitelist to blocklist and allowlist is one of the many small things we can do that makes our black colleagues feel seen, heard, and welcome in our workplaces. I support it. No one thinks changing language is enough to eliminate the systemic racism oppressing black people in the US. Eliminating that will require work and personal change. If you can't even stop using black to mean negative in the workplace and substitute it with more accurate words - the new words are clearer - then you likely are not prepared for the real work ahead. I personally refuse to work for any company that is not committing to that work.

krzyk 6y ago
Why would anyone be offended by blacklist? Would they be also offended by the color black? Or maybe dark mode, that is getting popular? Or maybe offended by the fact that most pages on the web have light/white theme? This is getting ridiculous (together with github ditching the name "master" - https://twitter.com/natfriedman/status/1271253144442253312 https://twitter.com/natfriedman/status/1271253144442253312), maybe it is the result of too much working from home recently - people create problems where there are none. What is even more funny is the fact that those changes are proposed by white guys without any complains from the black folks.
- tchaffee 6y ago
  > Why would anyone be offended by blacklist? Because of its etymology and history [1] for starters: n. also black-list, black list, “list of persons who have incurred suspicion,” 1610s, from black (adj.), here indicative of disgrace, censure, punishment (attested from 1590s, in black book) + list (n.). Specifically of employers’ list of workers considered troublesome (usually for union activity) is from 1888. As a verb, from 1718. Related: Blacklisted; blacklisting. [32] "It is notable that the first recorded use of the term occurs at the time of mass enslavement and forced deportation of Africans to work in European-held colonies in the Americas." > Or maybe dark mode Dark mode is not used in a negative way like "blacklist" or "blackballed". And it accurately describes exactly what happens. Unlike "blacklist" which is an inaccurate idiom that relies on "black" being used to mean "bad". So no, I doubt "dark mode" would offend anyone. > Why would anyone be offended You could start by learning about microagressions [2]. This one covers "blacklist" specifically. And was presented by a black man if that helps you with credibility. > This is getting ridiculous I agree that systemic racism has gone on for far too long. Even conservative four star US generals are starting to say we need big changes in society. > What is even more funny is the fact that those changes are proposed by white guys without any complains from the black folks. You are wrong. Just as one small counter-example the presentation I already cited that discusses "blacklist" was made by a black man. Anecdotal, but my black friends have sent me many resources recently about how to become a better anti-racist. Our diversity initiative at my current client is being lead by a black employee. This is coming from oppressed black people who have been very visibly protesting injustice for over two weeks now for the most recent injustice. And for decades actually for anyone who has been listening. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6148600/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6148600/ [2] https://www.appic.org/Portals/0/2018%20Conference/APPIC%202018%20%286%20update%205-3%29.pdf https://www.appic.org/Portals/0/2018%20Conference/APPIC%2020...

likeclockwork 6y ago

The white:black :: good:evil dichotomy has been open to criticism since one group of people labeled themselves white and another group of people black. That was when the colors became politicized.

TeMPOraL 6y ago
That dichotomy is older than politics, and has more to do with day being safer than night for diurnal animals like humans.