4 ms·

Reasons start ~ 30 min mark. Linux backward compatibility really sucks. I still don't understand why fedora binaries can't run that easily on debian.

mattbillenstein 6y ago
They all package different versions of the shared libs...
- andy_ppp 6y ago
  Why are shared libs so unstable? I thought the point of library code was that it was stable and reusable... maybe all these libraries are just too big and people should be including the source inside their apps instead?
  - foobar_ 6y ago
    I don't think any package manager does that. That would definitely be useful. Compile and ship binaries down to libc and use binaries on any GNU / Linux System. I don't see why as long as you output an ELF file an App can't run. Maybe AppImage does that.
- wahern 6y ago
  glibc has really good backward compatibility. But, yeah, few other libraries even bother, let alone make a serious attempt at this. One of the major exceptions is libvirt, which promised 100% backward compatibility from day 1. Here's a great overview (2011) of how they accomplish that: https://www.berrange.com/posts/2011/01/13/versioning-in-the-libvirt-library/ https://www.berrange.com/posts/2011/01/13/versioning-in-the-... Note that it wasn't until GCC 10 (2020) that you could implement ELF symbol versioning without using an ugly inline asm hack in your function definition. From the GCC 10 release notes at https://gcc.gnu.org/gcc-10/changes.html https://gcc.gnu.org/gcc-10/changes.html: > The symver attribute can be used to bind symbols to specific version nodes on ELF platforms. This is preferred to using inline assembly with GNU as symver directive because the latter is not compatible with link-time optimizations. In combination with confusion around the differences between file suffix versioning, soname versioning, and symbol versioning, it's not surprising few developers even attempt to get this right. OTOH, most ABI breakages are because of dumb mistakes early on or gratuitous changes to the API. If you commit to API stability from the beginning, then ABI stability can and will come more naturally, at least for C code. Versioning of any sort becomes less complicated and even less important.[1] C++ is different because of how heavily header-defined templates are used these days. [1] In other words, if you think API and ABI stability is principally a question of versioning, such as semantic versioning, you're doing it wrong. Commit to 100% backward compatibility at the API level and the answers to most of your design dilemmas become obvious. With the reduced cognitive burden, minding ABI compatibility becomes easier.
  - ur-whale 6y ago
    > glibc has really good backward compatibility. That has really not been my experience. I've consistently hit problem with older software not running because it detected an incompatible version of GLIBC.
    - wahern 6y ago
      Not running or not compiling? I've often had issues with compiling, either because of unwarranted assumptions in the third-party projects or because glibc made changes to their absurdly complex naming and feature gating hacks in their header files. But glibc uses symbol versioning so even if the prototype of function foo changes, older software built against version X.Y should still link to fooX.Y at runtime. I don't follow glibc closely enough to know how many times they've accidentally broken things, though. I'm sure it's happened. More complex runtime behaviors, like with the DNS resolver, are definitely common, but usually it's debatable whether glibc is fairly blameworthy.
    - megous 6y ago
      Well, it's backward compatibility, not forward one, so you can't compile on Arch Linux and run on Red Hat 4. But you can other way round.
Paianni 6y ago
Because they are two separate operating systems.
- nix23 6y ago
  What they are not Gnu/Linux? Man i did not knew that.....
- pantalaimon 6y ago
  The Linux Kernel and syscall interface is the same. They even use the same userspace libraries.
morsch 6y ago
I got that huge bundle of games the other day, many of which have native Linux binaries. Binaries that probably worked fine in lots of distributions when they were released. Tried three games so far -- Cook, Serve, Delicious 2 (2017), Nuclear Throne (2013) and uh, another one (201x): all of them refused to start, lacking one shared library or another. I got CSD2 to start by copying .so files around and using LD_LIBRARY_PATH but it still did not work properly. Whatever. Bizarrely, it may be easier to get the respective Windows binaries to start in Wine. But I'm really past "getting things to work", there's enough stuff out there that doesn't require those kind of summoning rituals.
- foobar_ 6y ago
  Is it a disadvantage of the bazaar model ? In a cathedral so to speak old things are valued. In a bazaar things are sold based on trends. I see this a lot with open source software, where things are not made with the mindset of making things last a long time.
  - morsch 6y ago
    It's a fun application of the metaphor. But I can still apt install nethack, a thing that was made in 1987. Or apt install lynx, a text mode browser first released in 1992. Or apt install midnight-commander, a Norton Commander[1] clone first released in 1994. All of these still receive updates, so I guess they don't qualify as old things per se, but that's the point: as long as there is still a use for them, they keep getting updated. If CSD2 or Nuclear Throne had been released as open source software, chances are somebody would have updated their dependencies and they'd run fine. Heck, I'm a developer, I could probably have fixed it myself. But they're proprietary, and have gotten stale, and are a pain to get working. So I guess it's more of an incompatibility between the two models than an attribute of the bazaar. [1] an old thing that's valued in the Cathedral, if at all, then only as a curiosity
    - foobar_ 6y ago
      That's true. Well to stretch the metaphor ;) some shops in the bazaars become boutiques to differentiate from other competitors. Boutiques price their uniqueness and that's certainly true of things like vim which is certainly an old software.
eeZah7Ux 6y ago
Huh? Running against a different set of shared libraries? - it has nothing to do with "backward" compatibility - it has nothing to do with Linux. If you change shared libraries with incompatible versions software will break on windows and bsd as well
- loopz 6y ago
  It's time to remind people again that "Linux" isn't one OS. At best it's kernel source that you get to compile for different architectures. There are distributions ("distros") that package up different sets of kernel, kernel parameters, modules, libraries, utilities, config and glue-scripts, though none of them actually claim backwards or cross-binary compatibility, unless for their own (ie. within major RHELS versions). It could be nice to not have to worry about all that compatibility and even some upgrade-issues that inevitably ensue. Though the costs can quickly outweigh the benefits, ie. as in the awfulness of "snap" and similar. Windows do have compatibility and emulation layers, though some older software may still have some issues, it often works. Security-wise it's a good idea to keep patches and upgrades fresh.
- onli 6y ago
  That has everything to do with backwards compatibility. You have one piece of software made for an old linux target that does not run anymore on modern Linux. Heck, most of the Feral games don't run on my Linux because they rely on shared libs that my system does not have, and those aren't even old! And it's only Linux that has that problem in that dimension. Windows just kept everything around. Other systems don't evolve as much as Linux has, and they do not have the distribution differences that kill compatibility on Linux. AppImage is great and solves that problem. It should be used more.
  - throwaway91914 6y ago
    You don't understand the definition of backward compatibility. There are examples of binaries written against a UNIX kernel from 30 years ago that run just fine. If you start adding dependencies on libraries you are choosing to have one of these problems: - use dynamic libraries and refuse to cooperate with maintainers and things will break, rightfully so - use dynamic libraries and the OS keep them around forever and it will become a security dumpster fire over time (and also will never scale down to embedded systems and phones) - use dynamic libraries and ship them in a tarball and it will become a security dumpster fire over time - use static libraries and it will become a security dumpster fire over time, plus it's even more difficult to tell what libraries are used - use dynamic libraries and ship them with docker or appimage or similar and it will become a security dumpster fire over time, plus you have unnecessary complexity - use dynamic libraries and package your stuff properly. Target LTS releases. Most good distributions will guarantee 5 years of stability of all the dependencies without version changes. Plus you get free backported security fixes and free testing. > And it's only Linux that has that problem in that dimension Not at all. > AppImage is great and solves that problem. It should be used more. Not at all.

mattbillenstein 6y ago

They all package different versions of the shared libs...

andy_ppp 6y ago
Why are shared libs so unstable? I thought the point of library code was that it was stable and reusable... maybe all these libraries are just too big and people should be including the source inside their apps instead?
- foobar_ 6y ago
  I don't think any package manager does that. That would definitely be useful. Compile and ship binaries down to libc and use binaries on any GNU / Linux System. I don't see why as long as you output an ELF file an App can't run. Maybe AppImage does that.
wahern 6y ago
glibc has really good backward compatibility. But, yeah, few other libraries even bother, let alone make a serious attempt at this. One of the major exceptions is libvirt, which promised 100% backward compatibility from day 1. Here's a great overview (2011) of how they accomplish that: https://www.berrange.com/posts/2011/01/13/versioning-in-the-libvirt-library/ https://www.berrange.com/posts/2011/01/13/versioning-in-the-... Note that it wasn't until GCC 10 (2020) that you could implement ELF symbol versioning without using an ugly inline asm hack in your function definition. From the GCC 10 release notes at https://gcc.gnu.org/gcc-10/changes.html https://gcc.gnu.org/gcc-10/changes.html: > The symver attribute can be used to bind symbols to specific version nodes on ELF platforms. This is preferred to using inline assembly with GNU as symver directive because the latter is not compatible with link-time optimizations. In combination with confusion around the differences between file suffix versioning, soname versioning, and symbol versioning, it's not surprising few developers even attempt to get this right. OTOH, most ABI breakages are because of dumb mistakes early on or gratuitous changes to the API. If you commit to API stability from the beginning, then ABI stability can and will come more naturally, at least for C code. Versioning of any sort becomes less complicated and even less important.[1] C++ is different because of how heavily header-defined templates are used these days. [1] In other words, if you think API and ABI stability is principally a question of versioning, such as semantic versioning, you're doing it wrong. Commit to 100% backward compatibility at the API level and the answers to most of your design dilemmas become obvious. With the reduced cognitive burden, minding ABI compatibility becomes easier.
- ur-whale 6y ago
  > glibc has really good backward compatibility. That has really not been my experience. I've consistently hit problem with older software not running because it detected an incompatible version of GLIBC.
  - wahern 6y ago
    Not running or not compiling? I've often had issues with compiling, either because of unwarranted assumptions in the third-party projects or because glibc made changes to their absurdly complex naming and feature gating hacks in their header files. But glibc uses symbol versioning so even if the prototype of function foo changes, older software built against version X.Y should still link to fooX.Y at runtime. I don't follow glibc closely enough to know how many times they've accidentally broken things, though. I'm sure it's happened. More complex runtime behaviors, like with the DNS resolver, are definitely common, but usually it's debatable whether glibc is fairly blameworthy.
  - megous 6y ago
    Well, it's backward compatibility, not forward one, so you can't compile on Arch Linux and run on Red Hat 4. But you can other way round.

Paianni 6y ago

Because they are two separate operating systems.

nix23 6y ago
What they are not Gnu/Linux? Man i did not knew that.....
pantalaimon 6y ago
The Linux Kernel and syscall interface is the same. They even use the same userspace libraries.

morsch 6y ago

I got that huge bundle of games the other day, many of which have native Linux binaries. Binaries that probably worked fine in lots of distributions when they were released. Tried three games so far -- Cook, Serve, Delicious 2 (2017), Nuclear Throne (2013) and uh, another one (201x): all of them refused to start, lacking one shared library or another. I got CSD2 to start by copying .so files around and using LD_LIBRARY_PATH but it still did not work properly. Whatever. Bizarrely, it may be easier to get the respective Windows binaries to start in Wine. But I'm really past "getting things to work", there's enough stuff out there that doesn't require those kind of summoning rituals.

foobar_ 6y ago
Is it a disadvantage of the bazaar model ? In a cathedral so to speak old things are valued. In a bazaar things are sold based on trends. I see this a lot with open source software, where things are not made with the mindset of making things last a long time.
- morsch 6y ago
  It's a fun application of the metaphor. But I can still apt install nethack, a thing that was made in 1987. Or apt install lynx, a text mode browser first released in 1992. Or apt install midnight-commander, a Norton Commander[1] clone first released in 1994. All of these still receive updates, so I guess they don't qualify as old things per se, but that's the point: as long as there is still a use for them, they keep getting updated. If CSD2 or Nuclear Throne had been released as open source software, chances are somebody would have updated their dependencies and they'd run fine. Heck, I'm a developer, I could probably have fixed it myself. But they're proprietary, and have gotten stale, and are a pain to get working. So I guess it's more of an incompatibility between the two models than an attribute of the bazaar. [1] an old thing that's valued in the Cathedral, if at all, then only as a curiosity
  - foobar_ 6y ago
    That's true. Well to stretch the metaphor ;) some shops in the bazaars become boutiques to differentiate from other competitors. Boutiques price their uniqueness and that's certainly true of things like vim which is certainly an old software.

eeZah7Ux 6y ago

Huh? Running against a different set of shared libraries? - it has nothing to do with "backward" compatibility - it has nothing to do with Linux. If you change shared libraries with incompatible versions software will break on windows and bsd as well

loopz 6y ago
It's time to remind people again that "Linux" isn't one OS. At best it's kernel source that you get to compile for different architectures. There are distributions ("distros") that package up different sets of kernel, kernel parameters, modules, libraries, utilities, config and glue-scripts, though none of them actually claim backwards or cross-binary compatibility, unless for their own (ie. within major RHELS versions). It could be nice to not have to worry about all that compatibility and even some upgrade-issues that inevitably ensue. Though the costs can quickly outweigh the benefits, ie. as in the awfulness of "snap" and similar. Windows do have compatibility and emulation layers, though some older software may still have some issues, it often works. Security-wise it's a good idea to keep patches and upgrades fresh.
onli 6y ago
That has everything to do with backwards compatibility. You have one piece of software made for an old linux target that does not run anymore on modern Linux. Heck, most of the Feral games don't run on my Linux because they rely on shared libs that my system does not have, and those aren't even old! And it's only Linux that has that problem in that dimension. Windows just kept everything around. Other systems don't evolve as much as Linux has, and they do not have the distribution differences that kill compatibility on Linux. AppImage is great and solves that problem. It should be used more.
- throwaway91914 6y ago
  You don't understand the definition of backward compatibility. There are examples of binaries written against a UNIX kernel from 30 years ago that run just fine. If you start adding dependencies on libraries you are choosing to have one of these problems: - use dynamic libraries and refuse to cooperate with maintainers and things will break, rightfully so - use dynamic libraries and the OS keep them around forever and it will become a security dumpster fire over time (and also will never scale down to embedded systems and phones) - use dynamic libraries and ship them in a tarball and it will become a security dumpster fire over time - use static libraries and it will become a security dumpster fire over time, plus it's even more difficult to tell what libraries are used - use dynamic libraries and ship them with docker or appimage or similar and it will become a security dumpster fire over time, plus you have unnecessary complexity - use dynamic libraries and package your stuff properly. Target LTS releases. Most good distributions will guarantee 5 years of stability of all the dependencies without version changes. Plus you get free backported security fixes and free testing. > And it's only Linux that has that problem in that dimension Not at all. > AppImage is great and solves that problem. It should be used more. Not at all.