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That's the mentality that leads to toasters running Linux. For many applications there's absolutely no need for ARM MCUs and all their added complexity. Plus f

That's the mentality that leads to toasters running Linux. For many applications there's absolutely no need for ARM MCUs and all their added complexity. Plus for the hobbyist at home, PIC still comes in DIP formats which is handy for breadboarding or soldering without the added difficulty of SMT.

lmilcin 6y ago
I make my own breadboardable ARMs using cheap converters. I only need a couple for prototyping. ARMs from ST can run for years on a single AA battery and have nowadays very easy tools. Probably you are missing understanding of whole range of ARM chips, these start from couple kB of flash and hundreds of bytes of memory.
bitbckt 6y ago
I couldn’t agree more with the parent. Further, PIC isn’t the only “non-ARM” in this space. Your average RainBird type water timer likely uses an MSP430, for example. The idea that ARM should be used in any/all situations is naive.
- exmadscientist 6y ago
  > The idea that ARM should be used in any/all situations is naive. I mean, sure, this is true. MSP430s are great when you need the lowest power, and AVRs are tiny and cheap for lowest cost. But... I do this for a living, and there's a reason our go-to is the Cortex-M series. M3 or M4 if you need a lot of CPU power, or M0/M0+ if you need small. They're just so, so much easier to program that the trivial additional cost of the microcontroller washes away in the noise. And it's not like this leads to Linux toasters; the M0 is not a microprocessor, it's a microcontroller. It's got a two-stage "pipeline" and absolutely no memory protection! There are tricks to get the larger M3s to run Linux, but it's hacky and not something you'd want to ship. PICs are essentially obsolete, and none of us would ever consider them for new development. They're annoyingly constrained hoary old beasts.
  - bitbckt 6y ago
    > PICs are essentially obsolete, and none of us would ever consider them for new development. They're annoyingly constrained hoary old beasts. No argument there.
- lmilcin 6y ago
  I never said you should use ARM for everything. I just asked why anybody wants to put up with PIC which is quirky and offers nothing over other chip families.
msla 6y ago
Minimalism-for-its-own-sake isn't a design goal in the real world.
theamk 6y ago
But even then, why bother with PICs which need assembly programming and their paging? There are ton of other 8-bitters which have no need for paging -- Atmel AVR, MSP430, even modern 8051 clones and higher end PICs. They all come in variety of DIP shapes and memory sizes, too. And great C-based toolchains. I think that for the last ten or so years, there is no excuse for someone to use low-end PIC, the ones where you need to write "pagesel" my hand, at all. There is no niche where they are good.
- m-ee 6y ago
  Capable C compilers have been around for a long time on PICs. I’ve only seen people using assembly for legacy systems that were already written that way. That said I wouldn’t use one for a new product. I think they could still have a place in education because of the quality of their data sheets and their robustness. In grad school we had a graveyard of ARM chips but the PICs put up with a really surprising amount of abuse.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  If one is willing to pay for tools, PICs can also be programming in Basic, Pascal and C. https://www.mikroe.com/mikroc-pic https://www.mikroe.com/mikroc-pic https://www.mikroe.com/mikropascal-pic https://www.mikroe.com/mikropascal-pic https://www.mikroe.com/mikrobasic-pic https://www.mikroe.com/mikrobasic-pic
  - lloydatkinson 6y ago
    Please, these tools and their IDE should be considered a crime against humanity.
    - pjmlp 6y ago
      I give that role to C and the security exploits it allows.
      - lloydatkinson 6y ago
        No the IDE's are literally terrible - imagine your favourite editor with everything removed. It's basically notepad.
lmilcin 6y ago
I guess your kind of mentality would be writing everything in assembly. Yes, it is possible to write a website in C or assembly and would probably be more efficient with resources. No, it doesn't make any sense. If you calculate you can learn one platform and use the knowledge and toolchain to produce wide variety of projects with less hassle it is difficult to defend using PIC for new projects when the only argument would be that maybe it uses less current in standby mode. The price is that you need to live with with essentially obsolete development environment with no future that you can use only for relatively simple projects.
- Jetroid 6y ago
  OP here, We prefer to use PIC microcontrollers because they come in a DIP package. Our products are mainly sold as PCBs that a customer assembles in their own home, appealing to the DIY electronics market. For many, SMD is challenging, so having a DIP package makes us more available. Additionally, the ability to use less power is useful because our products do not have an onboard power supply, instead relying on the rack's supply that may be shared between many products.
  - lmilcin 6y ago
    I only know ST ARM chips (aside from AVR I used before I started with ARM), but some low power ones go down to 1.8V and can sleep for years on two AAAs. I see no issue soldering LQFP packages even though I have very little experience (my domain is software) but I can see how DIP is much less assuming.

lmilcin 6y ago

I make my own breadboardable ARMs using cheap converters. I only need a couple for prototyping. ARMs from ST can run for years on a single AA battery and have nowadays very easy tools. Probably you are missing understanding of whole range of ARM chips, these start from couple kB of flash and hundreds of bytes of memory.

bitbckt 6y ago

I couldn’t agree more with the parent. Further, PIC isn’t the only “non-ARM” in this space. Your average RainBird type water timer likely uses an MSP430, for example. The idea that ARM should be used in any/all situations is naive.

exmadscientist 6y ago
> The idea that ARM should be used in any/all situations is naive. I mean, sure, this is true. MSP430s are great when you need the lowest power, and AVRs are tiny and cheap for lowest cost. But... I do this for a living, and there's a reason our go-to is the Cortex-M series. M3 or M4 if you need a lot of CPU power, or M0/M0+ if you need small. They're just so, so much easier to program that the trivial additional cost of the microcontroller washes away in the noise. And it's not like this leads to Linux toasters; the M0 is not a microprocessor, it's a microcontroller. It's got a two-stage "pipeline" and absolutely no memory protection! There are tricks to get the larger M3s to run Linux, but it's hacky and not something you'd want to ship. PICs are essentially obsolete, and none of us would ever consider them for new development. They're annoyingly constrained hoary old beasts.
- bitbckt 6y ago
  > PICs are essentially obsolete, and none of us would ever consider them for new development. They're annoyingly constrained hoary old beasts. No argument there.
lmilcin 6y ago
I never said you should use ARM for everything. I just asked why anybody wants to put up with PIC which is quirky and offers nothing over other chip families.

msla 6y ago

Minimalism-for-its-own-sake isn't a design goal in the real world.

theamk 6y ago

But even then, why bother with PICs which need assembly programming and their paging? There are ton of other 8-bitters which have no need for paging -- Atmel AVR, MSP430, even modern 8051 clones and higher end PICs. They all come in variety of DIP shapes and memory sizes, too. And great C-based toolchains. I think that for the last ten or so years, there is no excuse for someone to use low-end PIC, the ones where you need to write "pagesel" my hand, at all. There is no niche where they are good.

m-ee 6y ago
Capable C compilers have been around for a long time on PICs. I’ve only seen people using assembly for legacy systems that were already written that way. That said I wouldn’t use one for a new product. I think they could still have a place in education because of the quality of their data sheets and their robustness. In grad school we had a graveyard of ARM chips but the PICs put up with a really surprising amount of abuse.
pjmlp 6y ago
If one is willing to pay for tools, PICs can also be programming in Basic, Pascal and C. https://www.mikroe.com/mikroc-pic https://www.mikroe.com/mikroc-pic https://www.mikroe.com/mikropascal-pic https://www.mikroe.com/mikropascal-pic https://www.mikroe.com/mikrobasic-pic https://www.mikroe.com/mikrobasic-pic
- lloydatkinson 6y ago
  Please, these tools and their IDE should be considered a crime against humanity.
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    I give that role to C and the security exploits it allows.
    - lloydatkinson 6y ago
      No the IDE's are literally terrible - imagine your favourite editor with everything removed. It's basically notepad.

lmilcin 6y ago

I guess your kind of mentality would be writing everything in assembly. Yes, it is possible to write a website in C or assembly and would probably be more efficient with resources. No, it doesn't make any sense. If you calculate you can learn one platform and use the knowledge and toolchain to produce wide variety of projects with less hassle it is difficult to defend using PIC for new projects when the only argument would be that maybe it uses less current in standby mode. The price is that you need to live with with essentially obsolete development environment with no future that you can use only for relatively simple projects.

Jetroid 6y ago
OP here, We prefer to use PIC microcontrollers because they come in a DIP package. Our products are mainly sold as PCBs that a customer assembles in their own home, appealing to the DIY electronics market. For many, SMD is challenging, so having a DIP package makes us more available. Additionally, the ability to use less power is useful because our products do not have an onboard power supply, instead relying on the rack's supply that may be shared between many products.
- lmilcin 6y ago
  I only know ST ARM chips (aside from AVR I used before I started with ARM), but some low power ones go down to 1.8V and can sleep for years on two AAAs. I see no issue soldering LQFP packages even though I have very little experience (my domain is software) but I can see how DIP is much less assuming.