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I think impugning or debating the legitimacy of the entire healthcare industry based on ignorance of the details is not productive. It disgusts me. Nearly every

I think impugning or debating the legitimacy of the entire healthcare industry based on ignorance of the details is not productive. It disgusts me. Nearly everybody has a job in modern society that a random person on the street wouldn't understand, and yet too many people spend their time on the internet declaring most other people have "bullshit jobs". That is toxic bullshit. First the narrative was private insurance companies are useless, now it's the whole healthcare industry. You can't say that in fact $400B is being transferred, just because a number that big can be or is written down, and if it is, that it's inappropriate, without reference points and context. Anything that affects large numbers of people involves big numbers, so negative reactions to billions or trillions in and of themselves are useless or harmful.

TheDong 6y ago
> Nearly everybody has a job in modern society that a random person on the street wouldn't understand That's true, but there's a very distinct difference between private insurance companies and other jobs I don't understand. Most of the time, if someone has a job I wasn't aware of, after it's explained to me I understand the reason it exists and it largely makes sense. In addition, most jobs don't have a readily available comparison of "And this other place doesn't have that job, instead does this, and it has these better results." In the case of private insurance, we have several examples of other countries that have socialized healthcare and have notably better outcomes. We have studies showing that our private insurance industry is flawed as implemented in america.
- perl4ever 6y ago
  I wasn't defending private insurance companies, and I don't think they were mentioned in the article. The point I feel like making is that people have all the stock phrases and the same narrative about the US health care system when we aren't talking about the private insurance companies. When we aren't talking about people who are uncovered, abandoned by the government. Which makes me feel deceived, that people were making honest critiques in the first place lo these many years, rather than propagandizing against America because it's American. There are companies that are not-for-profit and part of public organizations, which are just like insurance companies but handle administration for Medicaid members. Are these useless, are these parasites? I don't believe hardly anyone who has an opinion on the system even knows such things exist. If they do have some purpose, in a public system, maybe popular criticism of insurance in general is too facile.
indemnity 6y ago
You’re welcome to visit any other developed country where people don’t live in fear of getting sick and don’t treat massive bills as an inevitability, even after having insurance. Their health systems are as competent as those in the states, despite the fear mongering by your health industry of years-long wait times, queues, etc. So yeah, if the job we don’t understand results in massive underserving of your nation’s health needs, perhaps your disgust is misdirected.
- disabled 6y ago
  Correct. In the US, the 3rd leading cause of death is believed to be preventable medical errors [1]. It is an absolutely atrocious statistic, that only mirrors developing countries. Statistically, this sort of thing only happens in developing countries, and never developed/industrialized countries. Americans should see the irony in that. A good resource, that I suggest all Americans consult so that they can stay alive is: http://HealthData.org http://HealthData.org I consulted that website for years for trusted data on global health systems. Ironically, it is the same group that runs the IMHE coronavirus predictive models in the US. It is an amazing group, run by the University of Washington, which has a phenomenal public medical school. Anyways, the wild part is that countries like Croatia compete with the US, for overall quality of care as a whole (not medical errors!). You know, a former Yugoslav war-torn, economically damaged country, that is up and rising thanks to being a new member to the European Union. It also has its geographic challenges in distributing care, due to having about 50 inhabited islands. One island is a 2 hour and 45 minute ferry ride away. If you get extremely sick, it is a 5 hour boat ride back to the mainland. There is no air ambulance service. The US is really going the wrong way, and for shocking reasons. Also, Americans are generally unaware of how low the bar has been actually set, which is actually extremely low. It is also the system's fault, not the doctors. We really do have incredible doctors in the US. [1] https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/05/03/476636183/death-certificates-undercount-toll-of-medical-errors https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/05/03/4766361...
- perl4ever 6y ago
  What is your criticism of American doctors and hospitals or Medicare? What does a nominal bill have to do with underserving health needs or a massive bill to the patient? American patients may be underserved, but the raw figures for casualties from COVID aren't justifying the idea that our system is radically worse. It appears to me that you're just saying in very general terms, that healthcare in the US is terrible, and making it clear that is inherently true irrespective of whether government provided coverage is available. If American health care is terrible because it is American, then the criticism is pure hate and cannot be constructive in any way. It used to be that the criticism was framed in the context that sensible developed countries cover healthcare for everyone and the US should get on board with this common sense modern approach. Coverage isn't a totally solved problem; that's not something to dispute. But where it is solved, the rhetoric, the pat phrases, should change, they should react. If the US is terrible just as ever, then the reasons were never serious. They were rationalizations for pure antipathy.

TheDong 6y ago

> Nearly everybody has a job in modern society that a random person on the street wouldn't understand That's true, but there's a very distinct difference between private insurance companies and other jobs I don't understand. Most of the time, if someone has a job I wasn't aware of, after it's explained to me I understand the reason it exists and it largely makes sense. In addition, most jobs don't have a readily available comparison of "And this other place doesn't have that job, instead does this, and it has these better results." In the case of private insurance, we have several examples of other countries that have socialized healthcare and have notably better outcomes. We have studies showing that our private insurance industry is flawed as implemented in america.

perl4ever 6y ago
I wasn't defending private insurance companies, and I don't think they were mentioned in the article. The point I feel like making is that people have all the stock phrases and the same narrative about the US health care system when we aren't talking about the private insurance companies. When we aren't talking about people who are uncovered, abandoned by the government. Which makes me feel deceived, that people were making honest critiques in the first place lo these many years, rather than propagandizing against America because it's American. There are companies that are not-for-profit and part of public organizations, which are just like insurance companies but handle administration for Medicaid members. Are these useless, are these parasites? I don't believe hardly anyone who has an opinion on the system even knows such things exist. If they do have some purpose, in a public system, maybe popular criticism of insurance in general is too facile.

indemnity 6y ago

You’re welcome to visit any other developed country where people don’t live in fear of getting sick and don’t treat massive bills as an inevitability, even after having insurance. Their health systems are as competent as those in the states, despite the fear mongering by your health industry of years-long wait times, queues, etc. So yeah, if the job we don’t understand results in massive underserving of your nation’s health needs, perhaps your disgust is misdirected.

disabled 6y ago
Correct. In the US, the 3rd leading cause of death is believed to be preventable medical errors [1]. It is an absolutely atrocious statistic, that only mirrors developing countries. Statistically, this sort of thing only happens in developing countries, and never developed/industrialized countries. Americans should see the irony in that. A good resource, that I suggest all Americans consult so that they can stay alive is: http://HealthData.org http://HealthData.org I consulted that website for years for trusted data on global health systems. Ironically, it is the same group that runs the IMHE coronavirus predictive models in the US. It is an amazing group, run by the University of Washington, which has a phenomenal public medical school. Anyways, the wild part is that countries like Croatia compete with the US, for overall quality of care as a whole (not medical errors!). You know, a former Yugoslav war-torn, economically damaged country, that is up and rising thanks to being a new member to the European Union. It also has its geographic challenges in distributing care, due to having about 50 inhabited islands. One island is a 2 hour and 45 minute ferry ride away. If you get extremely sick, it is a 5 hour boat ride back to the mainland. There is no air ambulance service. The US is really going the wrong way, and for shocking reasons. Also, Americans are generally unaware of how low the bar has been actually set, which is actually extremely low. It is also the system's fault, not the doctors. We really do have incredible doctors in the US. [1] https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/05/03/476636183/death-certificates-undercount-toll-of-medical-errors https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/05/03/4766361...
perl4ever 6y ago
What is your criticism of American doctors and hospitals or Medicare? What does a nominal bill have to do with underserving health needs or a massive bill to the patient? American patients may be underserved, but the raw figures for casualties from COVID aren't justifying the idea that our system is radically worse. It appears to me that you're just saying in very general terms, that healthcare in the US is terrible, and making it clear that is inherently true irrespective of whether government provided coverage is available. If American health care is terrible because it is American, then the criticism is pure hate and cannot be constructive in any way. It used to be that the criticism was framed in the context that sensible developed countries cover healthcare for everyone and the US should get on board with this common sense modern approach. Coverage isn't a totally solved problem; that's not something to dispute. But where it is solved, the rhetoric, the pat phrases, should change, they should react. If the US is terrible just as ever, then the reasons were never serious. They were rationalizations for pure antipathy.