6 ms·

This is exactly what I was talking about. You make a bunch of assumptions about peoples' political opinions that are incorrectly portraying them as centrists an

by phaus 6y ago

This is exactly what I was talking about. You make a bunch of assumptions about peoples' political opinions that are incorrectly portraying them as centrists and supporters of nazis if they don't adopt your world view. "Us or them" is killing America. Lack of nuance and intelligent discourse is destroying us. There's more to the extreme left than "Everyone deserves to be treated equally and with dignity." Politics in the US lacks nuance. You can be politically moderate and lean towards the left. It isn't simply conservative wolves in centrist clothing. I can vehemently disagree about many things that extreme leftists do and still vote for one over Donald Trump. But that doesn't mean voting for Donald Trump automatically makes someone a Nazi either.

CamperBob2 6y ago
But that doesn't mean voting for Donald Trump automatically makes someone a Nazi either. Doesn't it make them a Nazi enabler, though? Is that really much better than carrying the card and wearing the pin? The Soviets had a couple of good terms that can be recycled to describe Trump Voters Who Aren't Nazis: one was "fellow travelers," and the other was... probably a bit too inflammatory to post here.
- mistermann 6y ago
  > Doesn't it make them a Nazi enabler, though? Calling Trump a nazi seems incredibly disrespectful to people and their family who actually lost their lives to real nazis. Are you aware that you don't actually know what Trump supporters think? That your opinion is based on heuristics running on top of the absolutely tiny sample of the real world that you've been exposed to, much of it likely incredibly biased if not outright untrue?
  - CamperBob2 6y ago
    Are you aware that you don't actually know what Trump supporters think? I grew up with them. Trust me, I know what they think. This period of history may or may not be what Joe Strummer prepared us for, but it certainly looks like the one Hannah Arendt, Milton Mayer, and Alexander Solzhenitsyn prepared us for.
    - phaus 6y ago
      Did you grow up with 49% of the voters in this country, or are you generalizing them based on caricatured versions of your anecdotal experience? I haven't and don't plan on voting for Trump. However, you can't generalize a group of people consisting of approximately 60 million very easily. Even if you can't fathom why they would support him, there's a wide variety of backgrounds, experiences, and ideologies within that massive group. There are also many different political issues that have significant impacts on peoples' lives. Not everyone gets the same information about these issues. Even if they did, not everyone interprets and values them in the same exact way. I would bet most people voting for or against Trump are trying to do what they think will make the US a safe, fair, happy place to live. The problem is that many political issues are incredibly complex and most of them don't have clear cut solutions. Even in cases where they do, people still can't agree on the best course of action. Some people like to hand wave the complexity away by taking the stance that "one party just wants freedom and equal rights for everyone and the other wants the opposite".
- nowandlater 6y ago
  > "Doesn't it make them a Nazi enabler, though? Is that really much better than carrying the card and wearing the pin?" I'm going to recommend you watch something to better understand what that word means. It's a documentary [1] called Night and Fog, https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0048434/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0048434/ . Every few years or so I watch it again, just as a reminder. 1. https://documentarylovers.com/film/night-and-fog/ https://documentarylovers.com/film/night-and-fog/
  - CamperBob2 6y ago
    I'm very familiar with the Nacht und Nebel directive, but not with that particular film. In fact, "Night and Fog" was the first image that came to mind when I saw a protester being kidnapped and shoved into an unmarked vehicle recently. [1] I can perhaps be forgiven for thinking that it might be a good time to get off the fence and pick a side. I've also found some post-war narratives out of Germany to be downright bone-chilling, such as 'The Lives of Others.' Definitely recommend that one if you haven't seen it. Are there any specific points raised by 'Night and Fog' that you have in mind? 1: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-06-06/video-undercover-san-diego-police-arresting-protester-unmarked-van https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-06-06/video-un...
fzeroracer 6y ago
I mean, Donald Trump literally reversed transgender health protections this week. If you're voting for a Republican, you're voting for the party of Donald Trump and efforts like that which take away the rights of certain classes of citizens. You can't vote for a party and try to avoid taking the whole package deal. You get what you voted for.
- AnimalMuppet 6y ago
  But that logic means that if I vote for a Democrat, I'm also taking the whole package deal. And, bluntly, there aren't very many people that actually support all of that package deal.
  - fzeroracer 6y ago
    Yes, that's right. I don't agree with the full package deal, but I think it's far better than the alternative Again: You get what you vote for. Using 'I disagree with what my party is doing, but I'm voting for them anyways' as an attempt to avoid criticism doesn't work. That's the nature of US politics. If you vote for one party despite them doing some heinous things, then you tacitly support what they're doing. If you don't like it, then either don't vote or vote for the opposite party.
    - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
      And if I also disagree with some of what the other party is doing, then what? "Don't vote" seems to be the only option you have left. And I strongly disagree that that's the best option.
      - fzeroracer 6y ago
        Then you compromise and pick the party that you think best accomplishes what you want. But part of that compromise is that you accept the party is going to also do things you don't like. Which is something you can't escape criticism for. Voting is approval for that party. You're choosing to value what Party B does over Party A, which means you weigh the negatives of Party B as being less of a problem than the positives. That doesn't mean you get to avoid those negatives when someone else calls you out on who you decided to throw your lot in with.
TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
There really isn't more to the "extreme left" than equality and dignity. The problem is that even suggesting that equality and dignity are valid as bedrock communal values in business, politics, law, and economics is considered an aggressively extremist ultra-left position in the US - and not a sane and mature common sense centre-left view, as it is in parts of Europe. There's a reason for this, and it's to do with the real bedrock values of US culture. Bottom line is the Left in the US operates the same way as the rest of US culture does. And the underlying problem is understanding why, not complaining about superficial dynamics that are actually consistent with the way the culture operates as a whole.
- phaus 6y ago
  You put "extreme left" in quotes as if there isn't such a thing and its simply a way to malign mainstream liberals. Once again this is the kind of tribalism I'm talking about. All or nothing. Purity tests. There are leftists in the US to whom equality and dignity are the foundations of their belief system. However, that doesn't represent the whole of leftism in the US and it certainly doesn't represent the foundation of actual leftist extremism in America. To clarify, I don't think most people that fall on the left half of the political spectrum in the United States are extremists. I think that due to their fanaticism and tendency to be more vocal, the extremists have a voice disproportionate to their actual size. That doesn't mean they don't matter. It just means they don't represent as many people on the left as one would perceive them to based on social media and mainstream media. I'm not a leftist extremist. I'm a socially liberal moderate that likes the general idea of free market competition but understands that completely unregulated markets are probably just as toxic and doomed to fail as attempts to form completely planned economies. Prudent regulation can minimize predatory and exploitative behavior. I think there is a balance to be struck between people having individual freedoms and the ability of the government to take measures to prevent groups of people from making it impossible for marginalized groups of people to live enjoyable lives in the US. My search for that balance is founded on a desire for equality and dignity. For example, I don't think a city or state full of racists/homophobes should be able to use States' rights protections to establish bubbles where its impossible for certain minorities to comfortably exist. However, I believe that we are often really quick to take knee jerk reactions and pass legislation that may have unintended consequences when it comes to preserving everyone's freedom, equality, and dignity. You may choose to ignore them, but there are vocal voices in the progressive movement that are racist and sexist and are more interested in establishing a society that revolves around revenge against white people. Some of them are nobodies, but some of them are influential people in places of power in various industries. Leftist extremism exists. There are people advocating for violence against white people and men in general on Twitter for a daily basis. Reporting these people usually gets ignored. I'm opposed to leftist extremism and conservative extremism. People that advocate for violence and who advocate for a new type of inequality are assholes, regardless of how many of their unrelated political opinions I might share with them. I do, however, believe that the US has more work to do in regards to how it treats many different minority groups. I also believe that white privilege exists. I don't think every white person faces a life-changing situation where they benefit from it, but it happens. In my case I'm not sure how much of an impact it had, but it probably had an impact.

by phaus 6y ago

CamperBob2 6y ago

But that doesn't mean voting for Donald Trump automatically makes someone a Nazi either. Doesn't it make them a Nazi enabler, though? Is that really much better than carrying the card and wearing the pin? The Soviets had a couple of good terms that can be recycled to describe Trump Voters Who Aren't Nazis: one was "fellow travelers," and the other was... probably a bit too inflammatory to post here.

mistermann 6y ago
> Doesn't it make them a Nazi enabler, though? Calling Trump a nazi seems incredibly disrespectful to people and their family who actually lost their lives to real nazis. Are you aware that you don't actually know what Trump supporters think? That your opinion is based on heuristics running on top of the absolutely tiny sample of the real world that you've been exposed to, much of it likely incredibly biased if not outright untrue?
- CamperBob2 6y ago
  Are you aware that you don't actually know what Trump supporters think? I grew up with them. Trust me, I know what they think. This period of history may or may not be what Joe Strummer prepared us for, but it certainly looks like the one Hannah Arendt, Milton Mayer, and Alexander Solzhenitsyn prepared us for.
  - phaus 6y ago
    Did you grow up with 49% of the voters in this country, or are you generalizing them based on caricatured versions of your anecdotal experience? I haven't and don't plan on voting for Trump. However, you can't generalize a group of people consisting of approximately 60 million very easily. Even if you can't fathom why they would support him, there's a wide variety of backgrounds, experiences, and ideologies within that massive group. There are also many different political issues that have significant impacts on peoples' lives. Not everyone gets the same information about these issues. Even if they did, not everyone interprets and values them in the same exact way. I would bet most people voting for or against Trump are trying to do what they think will make the US a safe, fair, happy place to live. The problem is that many political issues are incredibly complex and most of them don't have clear cut solutions. Even in cases where they do, people still can't agree on the best course of action. Some people like to hand wave the complexity away by taking the stance that "one party just wants freedom and equal rights for everyone and the other wants the opposite".
nowandlater 6y ago
> "Doesn't it make them a Nazi enabler, though? Is that really much better than carrying the card and wearing the pin?" I'm going to recommend you watch something to better understand what that word means. It's a documentary [1] called Night and Fog, https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0048434/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0048434/ . Every few years or so I watch it again, just as a reminder. 1. https://documentarylovers.com/film/night-and-fog/ https://documentarylovers.com/film/night-and-fog/
- CamperBob2 6y ago
  I'm very familiar with the Nacht und Nebel directive, but not with that particular film. In fact, "Night and Fog" was the first image that came to mind when I saw a protester being kidnapped and shoved into an unmarked vehicle recently. [1] I can perhaps be forgiven for thinking that it might be a good time to get off the fence and pick a side. I've also found some post-war narratives out of Germany to be downright bone-chilling, such as 'The Lives of Others.' Definitely recommend that one if you haven't seen it. Are there any specific points raised by 'Night and Fog' that you have in mind? 1: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-06-06/video-undercover-san-diego-police-arresting-protester-unmarked-van https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-06-06/video-un...

fzeroracer 6y ago

I mean, Donald Trump literally reversed transgender health protections this week. If you're voting for a Republican, you're voting for the party of Donald Trump and efforts like that which take away the rights of certain classes of citizens. You can't vote for a party and try to avoid taking the whole package deal. You get what you voted for.

AnimalMuppet 6y ago
But that logic means that if I vote for a Democrat, I'm also taking the whole package deal. And, bluntly, there aren't very many people that actually support all of that package deal.
- fzeroracer 6y ago
  Yes, that's right. I don't agree with the full package deal, but I think it's far better than the alternative Again: You get what you vote for. Using 'I disagree with what my party is doing, but I'm voting for them anyways' as an attempt to avoid criticism doesn't work. That's the nature of US politics. If you vote for one party despite them doing some heinous things, then you tacitly support what they're doing. If you don't like it, then either don't vote or vote for the opposite party.
  - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
    And if I also disagree with some of what the other party is doing, then what? "Don't vote" seems to be the only option you have left. And I strongly disagree that that's the best option.
    - fzeroracer 6y ago
      Then you compromise and pick the party that you think best accomplishes what you want. But part of that compromise is that you accept the party is going to also do things you don't like. Which is something you can't escape criticism for. Voting is approval for that party. You're choosing to value what Party B does over Party A, which means you weigh the negatives of Party B as being less of a problem than the positives. That doesn't mean you get to avoid those negatives when someone else calls you out on who you decided to throw your lot in with.

TheOtherHobbes 6y ago

There really isn't more to the "extreme left" than equality and dignity. The problem is that even suggesting that equality and dignity are valid as bedrock communal values in business, politics, law, and economics is considered an aggressively extremist ultra-left position in the US - and not a sane and mature common sense centre-left view, as it is in parts of Europe. There's a reason for this, and it's to do with the real bedrock values of US culture. Bottom line is the Left in the US operates the same way as the rest of US culture does. And the underlying problem is understanding why, not complaining about superficial dynamics that are actually consistent with the way the culture operates as a whole.

phaus 6y ago
You put "extreme left" in quotes as if there isn't such a thing and its simply a way to malign mainstream liberals. Once again this is the kind of tribalism I'm talking about. All or nothing. Purity tests. There are leftists in the US to whom equality and dignity are the foundations of their belief system. However, that doesn't represent the whole of leftism in the US and it certainly doesn't represent the foundation of actual leftist extremism in America. To clarify, I don't think most people that fall on the left half of the political spectrum in the United States are extremists. I think that due to their fanaticism and tendency to be more vocal, the extremists have a voice disproportionate to their actual size. That doesn't mean they don't matter. It just means they don't represent as many people on the left as one would perceive them to based on social media and mainstream media. I'm not a leftist extremist. I'm a socially liberal moderate that likes the general idea of free market competition but understands that completely unregulated markets are probably just as toxic and doomed to fail as attempts to form completely planned economies. Prudent regulation can minimize predatory and exploitative behavior. I think there is a balance to be struck between people having individual freedoms and the ability of the government to take measures to prevent groups of people from making it impossible for marginalized groups of people to live enjoyable lives in the US. My search for that balance is founded on a desire for equality and dignity. For example, I don't think a city or state full of racists/homophobes should be able to use States' rights protections to establish bubbles where its impossible for certain minorities to comfortably exist. However, I believe that we are often really quick to take knee jerk reactions and pass legislation that may have unintended consequences when it comes to preserving everyone's freedom, equality, and dignity. You may choose to ignore them, but there are vocal voices in the progressive movement that are racist and sexist and are more interested in establishing a society that revolves around revenge against white people. Some of them are nobodies, but some of them are influential people in places of power in various industries. Leftist extremism exists. There are people advocating for violence against white people and men in general on Twitter for a daily basis. Reporting these people usually gets ignored. I'm opposed to leftist extremism and conservative extremism. People that advocate for violence and who advocate for a new type of inequality are assholes, regardless of how many of their unrelated political opinions I might share with them. I do, however, believe that the US has more work to do in regards to how it treats many different minority groups. I also believe that white privilege exists. I don't think every white person faces a life-changing situation where they benefit from it, but it happens. In my case I'm not sure how much of an impact it had, but it probably had an impact.