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> The project maintainer absolutely has the right to choose not to remove offensive language. What offensive language has been communicated in this case? > Wh

by eterps 6y ago

> The project maintainer absolutely has the right to choose not to remove offensive language. What offensive language has been communicated in this case? > What is he really fighting for? Wasn't that clearly explained in the post? > The language is outdated and stems from a practice Outdated? Has the 'practice' you're referring to dissappeared? > from a practice that is universally shunned. What to think of people practicing BDSM? Or bioligists describing insect behaviour? Is their language offensive? > There is work involved in changing the language yet there is no harm in it. It is harmful when it deflects from the actual problems we have in our society these days. Just because something is immediately actionable doesn't mean it is effective or even helpful. > People absolutely have the right to be offended. Of course people may feel offended, they just shouldn't automatically get additional rights by being offended. > Changing the language would be more welcoming towards people I agree with that. But I'm dissapointed that people are content with it. IMO it distracts from more pressing issues that need to be addressed.

x3haloed 6y ago
Nice attempt at deconstrivism. I will address a few of your points together: > What offensive language has been communicated in this case? > Outdated? Has the 'practice' you're referring to dissappeared? > What to think of people practicing BDSM? Or bioligists describing insect behaviour? Is their language offensive? I’m referring, obviously, to the language of “slave and master.” The practice of slavery, unfortunately, has not disappeared, but is universally banned and recognized as morally wrong. The use of language based on slavery in computer science was dreampt up long ago, and it’s time to rethink it - just as “mongoloid” used to be the official scientific word to refer to people with mental disabilities. I highly doubt you or the author would defend so vigorously the right to keep using that term in software APIs and documentation. It was a silly idea to use the word in the first place, and there’s simply no good reason to use it now. As for BDSM and language about insect behavior, that’s completely within a different realm, because those topics are not related to the long history of systemic suppression and subjection of an entire class of people You and other proponents of leaving offensive language intact are blinded by binary thinking - the slippery slope argument. That if one thing is done to address offended people, then something must be done for everyone who is offended, and where does it end? Therefore the slippery slope. That misguided type of thinking supposes that all moral decisions can be made on a set of universally applied rules that will decide what is right and what must be done about it. But the world is gray - not black and white, and no two situations are the same. Judgement is necessary in every situation. >> What is he really fighting for? > Wasn't that clearly explained in the post? Not really. What was clear from the post was that he didn’t want to do it, and he felt he wasn’t wrong for not doing it. That doesn’t explain why he went through the effort of presumably spending hours to write a lengthy blog post about it. The question then, is why is he fighting so hard against making some code and documentation changes? And on a related note: >> Changing the language would be more welcoming towards people > I agree with that. But I'm dissapointed that people are content with it. IMO it distracts from more pressing issues that need to be addressed. I think that actively fighting against changing the language by spending inordinate amounts of time writing blogs about his refusal to change the language is a huge distraction. Just do it or don’t do it. >> There is work involved in changing the language yet there is no harm in it. > It is harmful when it deflects from the actual problems we have in our society these days. Just because something is immediately actionable doesn't mean it is effective or even helpful. And who has determined that is not an actual problem? Or that this is not effective or helpful? You? The white males who run the world? >> People absolutely have the right to be offended. Of course people may feel offended, they just shouldn't automatically get additional rights by being offended. To which additional rights are you referring?
- eterps 6y ago
  Thanks for your reply, I'll have to give it more thought. I agree with most of it though. > You and other proponents of leaving offensive language intact I was/am actually in favor of removing said language because I want language to be welcoming towards people and people are clearly taking offense. > And who has determined that is not an actual problem? Or that this is not effective or helpful? You? No, I am in no way able to determine that. And I really hope it is helpful.
  - x3haloed 6y ago
    After writing my post, I thought again about directing my arguments at you specifically. It was maybe too personal and assumptive. I think I got too defensive. Anyway, I appreciate that you read what I wrote and chose to keep in the conversation.
    - eterps 6y ago
      Thank you. After reading my initial comment and having given it some thought I think I need to reconsider some of my points. I really like how ljm put it in this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23509854 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23509854
- yellowapple 6y ago
  > As for BDSM and language about insect behavior, that’s completely within a different realm, because those topics are not related to the long history of systemic suppression and subjection of an entire class of people Neither is computer science, yet here we are.

by eterps 6y ago

x3haloed 6y ago

Nice attempt at deconstrivism. I will address a few of your points together: > What offensive language has been communicated in this case? > Outdated? Has the 'practice' you're referring to dissappeared? > What to think of people practicing BDSM? Or bioligists describing insect behaviour? Is their language offensive? I’m referring, obviously, to the language of “slave and master.” The practice of slavery, unfortunately, has not disappeared, but is universally banned and recognized as morally wrong. The use of language based on slavery in computer science was dreampt up long ago, and it’s time to rethink it - just as “mongoloid” used to be the official scientific word to refer to people with mental disabilities. I highly doubt you or the author would defend so vigorously the right to keep using that term in software APIs and documentation. It was a silly idea to use the word in the first place, and there’s simply no good reason to use it now. As for BDSM and language about insect behavior, that’s completely within a different realm, because those topics are not related to the long history of systemic suppression and subjection of an entire class of people You and other proponents of leaving offensive language intact are blinded by binary thinking - the slippery slope argument. That if one thing is done to address offended people, then something must be done for everyone who is offended, and where does it end? Therefore the slippery slope. That misguided type of thinking supposes that all moral decisions can be made on a set of universally applied rules that will decide what is right and what must be done about it. But the world is gray - not black and white, and no two situations are the same. Judgement is necessary in every situation. >> What is he really fighting for? > Wasn't that clearly explained in the post? Not really. What was clear from the post was that he didn’t want to do it, and he felt he wasn’t wrong for not doing it. That doesn’t explain why he went through the effort of presumably spending hours to write a lengthy blog post about it. The question then, is why is he fighting so hard against making some code and documentation changes? And on a related note: >> Changing the language would be more welcoming towards people > I agree with that. But I'm dissapointed that people are content with it. IMO it distracts from more pressing issues that need to be addressed. I think that actively fighting against changing the language by spending inordinate amounts of time writing blogs about his refusal to change the language is a huge distraction. Just do it or don’t do it. >> There is work involved in changing the language yet there is no harm in it. > It is harmful when it deflects from the actual problems we have in our society these days. Just because something is immediately actionable doesn't mean it is effective or even helpful. And who has determined that is not an actual problem? Or that this is not effective or helpful? You? The white males who run the world? >> People absolutely have the right to be offended. Of course people may feel offended, they just shouldn't automatically get additional rights by being offended. To which additional rights are you referring?

eterps 6y ago
Thanks for your reply, I'll have to give it more thought. I agree with most of it though. > You and other proponents of leaving offensive language intact I was/am actually in favor of removing said language because I want language to be welcoming towards people and people are clearly taking offense. > And who has determined that is not an actual problem? Or that this is not effective or helpful? You? No, I am in no way able to determine that. And I really hope it is helpful.
- x3haloed 6y ago
  After writing my post, I thought again about directing my arguments at you specifically. It was maybe too personal and assumptive. I think I got too defensive. Anyway, I appreciate that you read what I wrote and chose to keep in the conversation.
  - eterps 6y ago
    Thank you. After reading my initial comment and having given it some thought I think I need to reconsider some of my points. I really like how ljm put it in this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23509854 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23509854
yellowapple 6y ago
> As for BDSM and language about insect behavior, that’s completely within a different realm, because those topics are not related to the long history of systemic suppression and subjection of an entire class of people Neither is computer science, yet here we are.