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Note that this is from 2018. I personally totally agree with the author. Anyone who chooses to be offended by words used in a totally different context is doin

Note that this is from 2018. I personally totally agree with the author. Anyone who chooses to be offended by words used in a totally different context is doing exactly that - choosing to be offended. If we keep going down this path of endless meaningless virtue signalling, where will we stop? Is the term "black hole" racist too? What about blackout? Etc, etc. No one really cares about these terms and it they do their opinion shouldn't outweigh the time, effort required to fix it, or the opinions of everyone else. Supporting this kind of asinine shit is essentially letting big corps like Google get away with doing practically nothing while seeming like the good guys. Stop focusing on the surface level shit and start focusing on the real issues.

tzs 6y ago
> Is the term "black hole" racist too? That has been objected to [1][2][3]. A white county commissioner described a slow office as a black hole for paperwork, a black county commissioner said that was racist and it should be called a white hole, and a black judge asked the first commissioner to apologize for his racist remark. Also, "angel food cake" and "devil's food cake" were also declared racist, apparently, in the same incident [3]. [1] https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sciences/sometimes-a-black-hole-is-just-a-black-hole https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sciences/sometimes-a-bl... [2] https://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opinion/2008/0723/p09s01-coop.html https://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opinion/2008/0723/p09s0... [3] https://www.npr.org/sections/newsandviews/2008/07/is_black_hole_a_racist_term.html https://www.npr.org/sections/newsandviews/2008/07/is_black_h...
- axaxs 6y ago
  LOL. That was a wild ride, thanks for sharing.
- blackhole999 6y ago
  Perhaps not racist but the origin is quite horrifying According to Hong-Yee Chiu, an astrophysicist at NASA, the Black Hole of Calcutta was the inspiration for the term black hole referring to regions of space-time resulting from the gravitational collapse of very heavy stars. He recalled hearing physicist Robert Dicke in the early 1960s compare such gravitationally collapsed objects to the prison https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hole_of_Calcutta https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hole_of_Calcutta
  - judge2020 6y ago
    Despite the origin, I would guess most people associate the name to the fact that black holes suck up all light (with the color black being the absence of light), as well as how pictures of black holes show the color as black.
- salawat 6y ago
  Again, a result of insertion of racially charged connotations into a context in which there are fundamentally none. A black hole is a stellar remnant of such density everything around it gets sucked in, but can't get out. The quote "white hole" is representative of a theoretical region of space where the outpour of mass and energy is so high as to render it inaccessible. Any value judgement of racial significance being attached to those terms is fundamentally a byproduct of the racially charged thinking of the participants. I want to make this clear; if one thinks something may be racist, one would be well served double checking one's own thinking, and the context behind it first for whether it is the perceiver themselves projecting onto a situation in which none is present. Failure to do so renders one completely blind to the actually extant major sources of systemic racial discrimination that are in dire need of wiping out. Namely things like Euclidean zoning, statistical redlining, demographic segmentation, the lack of humanity in our methods of effectively dealing with discrimination of criminal offenders simply in need of rehabilitation, and those we need to isolate from society at large. But no, perpetuation of bread and circuses, the politician's fallacy, scratching the surface, and doing nothing to actually change the underlying structure of the mechanisms and operative factors at work in the world is so much easier. It isn't enough to rage at perceived injustice. You have to grapple with it, run it down, understand it, reckon with it, and figure out how to keep life going without it. This also includes being honest about all the contributing factors and accepting that you might be a factor in it.
waheoo 6y ago
Where do you think the master slave name comes from? Masters give the orders. Slaves follow the master. Slaves get all the heavy work. Slaves take the beating. Its tone deaf to ignore this as why it might be offensive to some of your coworkers. And in any case, the name is vague at best anyway. Write db, read db, primary, replica, leader, follower, marshal, worker. All better, more descriptive names for various master/slave relationships.
- yellowbuilding 6y ago
  same with bosses and workers, and nobody seems to mind that.
- luckylion 6y ago
  > Its tone deaf to ignore this as why it might be offensive to some of your coworkers. I'm speculating: you believe it's a problem for African Americans, but e.g. not for Polish Americans, right? I'm trying to understand your thought process here, because the word slave literally (literally literally, I'm not making this up) stems from Slavic people that were captured by Romans.
  - ptsneves 6y ago
    On the topic of romans and meanings changing, the word decimation used to mean the killing of one in ten in the Roman legions as a way to get military discipline. Nowadays there is no connection to Roman legions nor killing and actually is used to refer as a synonimous to anyhalation in general. It annoys me this slave thing because racism or xenophobia are often very complex and real problems of disaffection and social innequality yet we are policing words as if it has any corrective impact.
    - yellowapple 6y ago
      > yet we are policing words as if it has any corrective impact. Exactly. There are far bigger fish to fry than whether or not some piece of software uses terms that can be misconstrued to be somehow racist (riddle me this: is BDSM inherently racist because that subculture uses "master" and "slave" terminology?). We (at least here in the US) are in dire need of widespread reforms throughout our "justice" system, particularly when it comes to police and prisons. We are also facing an ongoing issue of white supremacists infesting our government at all levels. Harassing open-source projects over what words they use is a petty and pointless distraction from these very real issues that have very real and very strong impacts on American minorities. I can't speak to other countries and their race relations, but my impression from hearing about their attitudes toward immigrants/refugees is that they ain't much better.
judge2020 6y ago
The first comment on the page is important to pay attention to: http://antirez.com/news/122#comment-4084872912 http://antirez.com/news/122#comment-4084872912
- chrisoverzero 6y ago
  The one that gets its cachet from its ostensibly having been written by a Black man but is associated with an avatar which is a stock photo of a Black man? I’m less sure than you are.
  - judge2020 6y ago
    You're right, I found the stock photo: https://pixabay.com/photos/fashion-afro-american-black-people-1835871/ https://pixabay.com/photos/fashion-afro-american-black-peopl...
koboll 6y ago
nvm
- hombre_fatal 6y ago
  > I'm guessing you are white, so you can't really fully grasp the experience of being pointlessly reminded day in and day out by a software product that your ancestors were systematically kidnapped, forced to work for their entire lives, raped, had their children taken, and then often murdered. For generations. Eh, that describes how all humans lived as you travel back in time. That describes all of our ancestry. Kidnapping, rape, immense suffering at the hands of power hierarchies. Hell, look up where the word "slave" comes from and which group of people it spawned from. Hint: it wasn't black Americans 200 years ago.
- s17n 6y ago
  There's no such thing as a "slave branch"
- gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
  > No black person will ever, ever stop being offended by having to push their "slave" branch to a "master" branch, for the same reason no Jew would ever, ever stop being offended by having to push their "jew" branch to a "nazi" branch. You're essentializing race and religion. Do you think Larry David gets thrown into a tail-spin any time someone uses the term "grammar nazi"?
cryptica 6y ago
Agreed. There is widespread discrimination in the media against politically incorrect people. Political incorrectness is part of my personal identity. I didn't choose to be born careless, it's a natural tendency that I have. I'm sorry I wasn't born as an easily offended person. I don't get offended by other people's words and I don't expect other people to be offended by my words either. Does that make me a bad person? Should we just get rid of people like me from society? Replace me with more offended people who take everything seriously? I thought that division and extremism was a problem of our modern society? I guess I must be wrong there too. Opinionated, offended people often tell me that I'm wrong. They say it so aggressively, I guess they must be right. Usually, when people feel strongly about something, it's a good indication that they're right.
- cryptica 6y ago
  I can see that my comment was downvoted a lot. I suspect that this is because only offended people vote at all. This down-voting is real discrimination. It offends and hurts me for real in a profound way. How would you down-voters feel if I downvoted you for expressing an idea which captures the essence of who you are? I struggle with this issue for real, every day of my life. People don't take introverted, unopinionated people seriously these days. I had to change to get my voice heard.
  - pas 6y ago
    What does offended even mean really? What if someone just thinks your views are not constructive? (I haven't voted either way on any of your comments, but/although I support these easy changes.)
  - vaidhy 6y ago
    If you are born careless and not easily offended, why would the downvotes affect you? There seems to be some inherent conflict in your statements. If you have no opinions, then you take no stand. Why should people take you seriously? I believe that you have strong opinions about people should act and feel (No one should get offended because you do not get offended by a particular statement) and that comes across as very callous.
chipgap98 6y ago
> Anyone who chooses to be offended by words used in a totally different context is doing exactly that - choosing to be offended This argument seems like it could be used to absolve anyone of guilt for using racist terms. "I'm not racist, that person chose to be offended by my statement". > No one really cares about these terms Seemingly people do care about these terms because we're having this discussion. In our white-dominated industry I would bet many don't, but why not make an effort to make the terminology we use more inclusive. > their opinion shouldn't outweigh the time, effort required to fix it, or the opinions of everyone else I don't think people are expecting open source maintainers to drop everything to fix these terms. In some cases it will be unfeasible and they could just say that.
- jhrmnn 6y ago
  > This argument seems like it could be used to absolve anyone of guilt for using racist terms. "I'm not racist, that person chose to be offended by my statement". Technically, yes. But what matters (should matter) in the end is the intent. (Did I say that to offend or did I say it because I didn’t know better?) What should matter is the intended meaning of words, not the formal appearance of words. After all that’s what language is about. Now, I realize this gets complicated once you consider that a language use that arose from injustice/bias continues to perpetuate that bias. But that is not the case here.
cactus2093 6y ago
When you assert “nobody cares”, you’re just being a jerk. Lots of people do, you just don’t care. And your reduction ad absurdum argument is not convincing at all here. Yes it is possible to take this too far. Some people probably do take it too far. The concepts of light and dark are physical realities as in a black hole being the absence of reflected or emitted light. And they have long been used as metaphors for opposing forces, as in yin and yang or many cultures’ representations of good and evil. I think there is very reasonable argument that analogies to these things can be separated from the concept of white and black as races of people in American. There is really no reasonable argument that master and slave is a good terminology to use for databases. It’s an overt and completely unnecessary reference to slavery, and not even a particularly apt or useful analogy. There are better words like primary and replica or follower that are easy to use.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
  > It’s an overt and completely unnecessary reference to slavery, and not even a particularly apt or useful analogy. Is it not far more demeaning to act like anyone would crumble under the weight of mere words used in a technical context? Should we drop the term clone because it causes the religious to dwell on evil scientists playing god?
  - cactus2093 6y ago
    > Is it not far more demeaning to act like anyone would crumble under the weight of mere words used in a technical context? No, it's not far more demeaning. You're really arguing that it's demeaning to be decent and respect other people's feelings and reactions to things? With that attitude, should I just walk around insulting people for no reason, telling everyone I come across to go fuck themselves? Because it would be far more demeaning to assume that someone can't handle being told to go fuck themselves.
- yellowapple 6y ago
  > There is really no reasonable argument that master and slave is a good terminology to use for databases. That doesn't mean that it's reasonable to insist that all databases which already use this terminology should potentially break compatibility with prior versions of themselves simply because a handful of other people see the words "master" and "slave" and entirely ignore actual context in order to look "woke" (coming across as superficial and insincere in the process). It is what it is. Maybe there are more descriptive terms, but "master" and "slave" are descriptive enough.
hintymad 6y ago
I'm surprised to see your comment is voted up to the top place. The moment I read your comment, I could imagine what people would say with outrage: tone deaf; you just don't care; you're a racist so you don't see the racism in such oppressive language; if someone feels offended, then the language is offensive so we must take it out; if you're not with us, the you're against us, etc and etc. I personally always wonder where the boundary is for such demand of total conformity. Anyone who's familiar with The French Revolution and The Chinese Cultural Revolution will be cautious, to say the least, because it is so easy to see how much evil was done in the name of righteousness. That said, I find it hard to argue about the framework of this second-international-like movement. After all, you're tone-deaf if you deny that a phrase may be offensive to even one person, right? Moral high ground, well, is a high ground.
thaneross 6y ago
I agree there's good reason to be skeptical about claims that certain language is inherently harmful, but let's be charitable and believe people are genuinely offended. I have 2 questions: 1. Does offence in this case constitute harm? 2. What percentage of the population needs to be offended before it should be taken seriously? 51%? 10%? A single person? Perhaps the majority of people in an affected group?
apta 6y ago
> Anyone who chooses to be offended by words used in a totally different context is doing exactly that - choosing to be offended. It's even more absurd in these situations, since the ones "offended" are almost always whites who have nothing better to do than to stir up controversy.
- yellowapple 6y ago
  The cynic in me thinks that these might be people trying to discredit actual human rights movements by masquerading as members thereof and spamming every possible venue with trivial nonsense.
  - apta 6y ago
    You're giving them too much credit :) I think they're unaware of the dumbing down they're doing.

tzs 6y ago

> Is the term "black hole" racist too? That has been objected to [1][2][3]. A white county commissioner described a slow office as a black hole for paperwork, a black county commissioner said that was racist and it should be called a white hole, and a black judge asked the first commissioner to apologize for his racist remark. Also, "angel food cake" and "devil's food cake" were also declared racist, apparently, in the same incident [3]. [1] https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sciences/sometimes-a-black-hole-is-just-a-black-hole https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sciences/sometimes-a-bl... [2] https://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opinion/2008/0723/p09s01-coop.html https://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opinion/2008/0723/p09s0... [3] https://www.npr.org/sections/newsandviews/2008/07/is_black_hole_a_racist_term.html https://www.npr.org/sections/newsandviews/2008/07/is_black_h...

axaxs 6y ago
LOL. That was a wild ride, thanks for sharing.
blackhole999 6y ago
Perhaps not racist but the origin is quite horrifying According to Hong-Yee Chiu, an astrophysicist at NASA, the Black Hole of Calcutta was the inspiration for the term black hole referring to regions of space-time resulting from the gravitational collapse of very heavy stars. He recalled hearing physicist Robert Dicke in the early 1960s compare such gravitationally collapsed objects to the prison https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hole_of_Calcutta https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hole_of_Calcutta
- judge2020 6y ago
  Despite the origin, I would guess most people associate the name to the fact that black holes suck up all light (with the color black being the absence of light), as well as how pictures of black holes show the color as black.
salawat 6y ago
Again, a result of insertion of racially charged connotations into a context in which there are fundamentally none. A black hole is a stellar remnant of such density everything around it gets sucked in, but can't get out. The quote "white hole" is representative of a theoretical region of space where the outpour of mass and energy is so high as to render it inaccessible. Any value judgement of racial significance being attached to those terms is fundamentally a byproduct of the racially charged thinking of the participants. I want to make this clear; if one thinks something may be racist, one would be well served double checking one's own thinking, and the context behind it first for whether it is the perceiver themselves projecting onto a situation in which none is present. Failure to do so renders one completely blind to the actually extant major sources of systemic racial discrimination that are in dire need of wiping out. Namely things like Euclidean zoning, statistical redlining, demographic segmentation, the lack of humanity in our methods of effectively dealing with discrimination of criminal offenders simply in need of rehabilitation, and those we need to isolate from society at large. But no, perpetuation of bread and circuses, the politician's fallacy, scratching the surface, and doing nothing to actually change the underlying structure of the mechanisms and operative factors at work in the world is so much easier. It isn't enough to rage at perceived injustice. You have to grapple with it, run it down, understand it, reckon with it, and figure out how to keep life going without it. This also includes being honest about all the contributing factors and accepting that you might be a factor in it.

waheoo 6y ago

Where do you think the master slave name comes from? Masters give the orders. Slaves follow the master. Slaves get all the heavy work. Slaves take the beating. Its tone deaf to ignore this as why it might be offensive to some of your coworkers. And in any case, the name is vague at best anyway. Write db, read db, primary, replica, leader, follower, marshal, worker. All better, more descriptive names for various master/slave relationships.

yellowbuilding 6y ago
same with bosses and workers, and nobody seems to mind that.
luckylion 6y ago
> Its tone deaf to ignore this as why it might be offensive to some of your coworkers. I'm speculating: you believe it's a problem for African Americans, but e.g. not for Polish Americans, right? I'm trying to understand your thought process here, because the word slave literally (literally literally, I'm not making this up) stems from Slavic people that were captured by Romans.
- ptsneves 6y ago
  On the topic of romans and meanings changing, the word decimation used to mean the killing of one in ten in the Roman legions as a way to get military discipline. Nowadays there is no connection to Roman legions nor killing and actually is used to refer as a synonimous to anyhalation in general. It annoys me this slave thing because racism or xenophobia are often very complex and real problems of disaffection and social innequality yet we are policing words as if it has any corrective impact.
  - yellowapple 6y ago
    > yet we are policing words as if it has any corrective impact. Exactly. There are far bigger fish to fry than whether or not some piece of software uses terms that can be misconstrued to be somehow racist (riddle me this: is BDSM inherently racist because that subculture uses "master" and "slave" terminology?). We (at least here in the US) are in dire need of widespread reforms throughout our "justice" system, particularly when it comes to police and prisons. We are also facing an ongoing issue of white supremacists infesting our government at all levels. Harassing open-source projects over what words they use is a petty and pointless distraction from these very real issues that have very real and very strong impacts on American minorities. I can't speak to other countries and their race relations, but my impression from hearing about their attitudes toward immigrants/refugees is that they ain't much better.

judge2020 6y ago

The first comment on the page is important to pay attention to: http://antirez.com/news/122#comment-4084872912 http://antirez.com/news/122#comment-4084872912

chrisoverzero 6y ago
The one that gets its cachet from its ostensibly having been written by a Black man but is associated with an avatar which is a stock photo of a Black man? I’m less sure than you are.
- judge2020 6y ago
  You're right, I found the stock photo: https://pixabay.com/photos/fashion-afro-american-black-people-1835871/ https://pixabay.com/photos/fashion-afro-american-black-peopl...

koboll 6y ago

nvm

hombre_fatal 6y ago
> I'm guessing you are white, so you can't really fully grasp the experience of being pointlessly reminded day in and day out by a software product that your ancestors were systematically kidnapped, forced to work for their entire lives, raped, had their children taken, and then often murdered. For generations. Eh, that describes how all humans lived as you travel back in time. That describes all of our ancestry. Kidnapping, rape, immense suffering at the hands of power hierarchies. Hell, look up where the word "slave" comes from and which group of people it spawned from. Hint: it wasn't black Americans 200 years ago.
s17n 6y ago
There's no such thing as a "slave branch"
gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
> No black person will ever, ever stop being offended by having to push their "slave" branch to a "master" branch, for the same reason no Jew would ever, ever stop being offended by having to push their "jew" branch to a "nazi" branch. You're essentializing race and religion. Do you think Larry David gets thrown into a tail-spin any time someone uses the term "grammar nazi"?

cryptica 6y ago

Agreed. There is widespread discrimination in the media against politically incorrect people. Political incorrectness is part of my personal identity. I didn't choose to be born careless, it's a natural tendency that I have. I'm sorry I wasn't born as an easily offended person. I don't get offended by other people's words and I don't expect other people to be offended by my words either. Does that make me a bad person? Should we just get rid of people like me from society? Replace me with more offended people who take everything seriously? I thought that division and extremism was a problem of our modern society? I guess I must be wrong there too. Opinionated, offended people often tell me that I'm wrong. They say it so aggressively, I guess they must be right. Usually, when people feel strongly about something, it's a good indication that they're right.

cryptica 6y ago
I can see that my comment was downvoted a lot. I suspect that this is because only offended people vote at all. This down-voting is real discrimination. It offends and hurts me for real in a profound way. How would you down-voters feel if I downvoted you for expressing an idea which captures the essence of who you are? I struggle with this issue for real, every day of my life. People don't take introverted, unopinionated people seriously these days. I had to change to get my voice heard.
- pas 6y ago
  What does offended even mean really? What if someone just thinks your views are not constructive? (I haven't voted either way on any of your comments, but/although I support these easy changes.)
- vaidhy 6y ago
  If you are born careless and not easily offended, why would the downvotes affect you? There seems to be some inherent conflict in your statements. If you have no opinions, then you take no stand. Why should people take you seriously? I believe that you have strong opinions about people should act and feel (No one should get offended because you do not get offended by a particular statement) and that comes across as very callous.

chipgap98 6y ago

> Anyone who chooses to be offended by words used in a totally different context is doing exactly that - choosing to be offended This argument seems like it could be used to absolve anyone of guilt for using racist terms. "I'm not racist, that person chose to be offended by my statement". > No one really cares about these terms Seemingly people do care about these terms because we're having this discussion. In our white-dominated industry I would bet many don't, but why not make an effort to make the terminology we use more inclusive. > their opinion shouldn't outweigh the time, effort required to fix it, or the opinions of everyone else I don't think people are expecting open source maintainers to drop everything to fix these terms. In some cases it will be unfeasible and they could just say that.

jhrmnn 6y ago
> This argument seems like it could be used to absolve anyone of guilt for using racist terms. "I'm not racist, that person chose to be offended by my statement". Technically, yes. But what matters (should matter) in the end is the intent. (Did I say that to offend or did I say it because I didn’t know better?) What should matter is the intended meaning of words, not the formal appearance of words. After all that’s what language is about. Now, I realize this gets complicated once you consider that a language use that arose from injustice/bias continues to perpetuate that bias. But that is not the case here.

cactus2093 6y ago

When you assert “nobody cares”, you’re just being a jerk. Lots of people do, you just don’t care. And your reduction ad absurdum argument is not convincing at all here. Yes it is possible to take this too far. Some people probably do take it too far. The concepts of light and dark are physical realities as in a black hole being the absence of reflected or emitted light. And they have long been used as metaphors for opposing forces, as in yin and yang or many cultures’ representations of good and evil. I think there is very reasonable argument that analogies to these things can be separated from the concept of white and black as races of people in American. There is really no reasonable argument that master and slave is a good terminology to use for databases. It’s an overt and completely unnecessary reference to slavery, and not even a particularly apt or useful analogy. There are better words like primary and replica or follower that are easy to use.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
> It’s an overt and completely unnecessary reference to slavery, and not even a particularly apt or useful analogy. Is it not far more demeaning to act like anyone would crumble under the weight of mere words used in a technical context? Should we drop the term clone because it causes the religious to dwell on evil scientists playing god?
- cactus2093 6y ago
  > Is it not far more demeaning to act like anyone would crumble under the weight of mere words used in a technical context? No, it's not far more demeaning. You're really arguing that it's demeaning to be decent and respect other people's feelings and reactions to things? With that attitude, should I just walk around insulting people for no reason, telling everyone I come across to go fuck themselves? Because it would be far more demeaning to assume that someone can't handle being told to go fuck themselves.
yellowapple 6y ago
> There is really no reasonable argument that master and slave is a good terminology to use for databases. That doesn't mean that it's reasonable to insist that all databases which already use this terminology should potentially break compatibility with prior versions of themselves simply because a handful of other people see the words "master" and "slave" and entirely ignore actual context in order to look "woke" (coming across as superficial and insincere in the process). It is what it is. Maybe there are more descriptive terms, but "master" and "slave" are descriptive enough.

hintymad 6y ago

I'm surprised to see your comment is voted up to the top place. The moment I read your comment, I could imagine what people would say with outrage: tone deaf; you just don't care; you're a racist so you don't see the racism in such oppressive language; if someone feels offended, then the language is offensive so we must take it out; if you're not with us, the you're against us, etc and etc. I personally always wonder where the boundary is for such demand of total conformity. Anyone who's familiar with The French Revolution and The Chinese Cultural Revolution will be cautious, to say the least, because it is so easy to see how much evil was done in the name of righteousness. That said, I find it hard to argue about the framework of this second-international-like movement. After all, you're tone-deaf if you deny that a phrase may be offensive to even one person, right? Moral high ground, well, is a high ground.

thaneross 6y ago

I agree there's good reason to be skeptical about claims that certain language is inherently harmful, but let's be charitable and believe people are genuinely offended. I have 2 questions: 1. Does offence in this case constitute harm? 2. What percentage of the population needs to be offended before it should be taken seriously? 51%? 10%? A single person? Perhaps the majority of people in an affected group?

apta 6y ago

> Anyone who chooses to be offended by words used in a totally different context is doing exactly that - choosing to be offended. It's even more absurd in these situations, since the ones "offended" are almost always whites who have nothing better to do than to stir up controversy.

yellowapple 6y ago
The cynic in me thinks that these might be people trying to discredit actual human rights movements by masquerading as members thereof and spamming every possible venue with trivial nonsense.
- apta 6y ago
  You're giving them too much credit :) I think they're unaware of the dumbing down they're doing.