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The problem I’m starting to see is that the continued use of phrases like this (master/slave, blacklist/whitelist) can be a constant reminder to some that they

The problem I’m starting to see is that the continued use of phrases like this (master/slave, blacklist/whitelist) can be a constant reminder to some that they “don’t belong here.” Obviously, in this context, they aren’t meant to be racist; but they are a reminder that racism exists. The end result is that it makes more people feel unwanted and ultimately leave tech.

unit-test 6y ago
>The end result is that it makes more people feel unwanted and ultimately leave tech. The most dangerous part about this line of thought is that it is essentially unfalsifiable. We are witnessing the long march through the institutions.
gruez 6y ago
>the continued use of phrases like this (master/slave, blacklist/whitelist) can be a constant reminder to some that they “don’t belong here.” I'm sorry, but what? It's not like you're calling the CEOs/managers "masters" and the rank and file devs "slaves". It's literally a term assigned to an inanimate object.
YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago
Yikes. "Blacklist" has nothing to do with skin colour. In a different context, "being in the black" is a positive situation and contrasted with "being in the red". We start down that path and we'll end up banning "Paint it black" as a racist song.
- loeg 6y ago
  A blacklist may not have anything to do with skin color, but being on a blacklist usually has negative connotations, not positive. The related term is "whitelist," not "redlist." So I can understand why people might believe the pair has racial overtones.
  - YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago
    I think this is a similar misunderstanding as attributing the spelling "history" (which is a typical transliteration of the word "ιστορία" from Greek, that doesn't have a "his" syllable) to the fact that history is dominated by male figures. Some have suggested the term should be changed to "herstory" to recognise the contribution of women to history. To my mind, thinking that "blacklisting" has racist connotations because we all African people "black" also, is a similar kind of confusion. Edit: to clarify what I'm trying to say. The fact that "black" is in "blacklist" is a coincidence and nothing to do with racism. Same as the fact that "his" is in "history".
    - gruez 6y ago
      >Some have suggested the term should be changed to "herstory" to recognise the contribution of women to history. Which is funny in itself. "history" is sexist because it's male, so let's do some affirmative action and make it sexist in the other direction!
  - yxhuvud 6y ago
    Well, the function of a blacklist tend to have negative connotations, so that those connotations match how they are actually used seems like a feature, not like something to avoid.
  - loco5niner 6y ago
    Right, and the GP addressed this by giving a counter-example. Also, there is also debate about the 'redskins'.
luckylion 6y ago
> The problem I’m starting to see is that the continued use of phrases like this (master/slave, blacklist/whitelist) can be a constant reminder to some that they “don’t belong here.” I don't mean to be rude or belittle someone's feelings, but isn't that pretty much a sign of being mentally unwell? "This text uses blacklist to mean a list of words not being allowed. My skin is brown. This is a dog whistle to racists and a reminder that I am not welcome in tech" sounds like something that signals a need for therapy and potentially medication, not a rewrite of the documentation.
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CodeGlitch 6y ago
>they are a reminder that racism exists. So you want everyone to forget racism exists? (Because it does BTW).

unit-test 6y ago

>The end result is that it makes more people feel unwanted and ultimately leave tech. The most dangerous part about this line of thought is that it is essentially unfalsifiable. We are witnessing the long march through the institutions.

gruez 6y ago

>the continued use of phrases like this (master/slave, blacklist/whitelist) can be a constant reminder to some that they “don’t belong here.” I'm sorry, but what? It's not like you're calling the CEOs/managers "masters" and the rank and file devs "slaves". It's literally a term assigned to an inanimate object.

YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago

Yikes. "Blacklist" has nothing to do with skin colour. In a different context, "being in the black" is a positive situation and contrasted with "being in the red". We start down that path and we'll end up banning "Paint it black" as a racist song.

loeg 6y ago
A blacklist may not have anything to do with skin color, but being on a blacklist usually has negative connotations, not positive. The related term is "whitelist," not "redlist." So I can understand why people might believe the pair has racial overtones.
- YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago
  I think this is a similar misunderstanding as attributing the spelling "history" (which is a typical transliteration of the word "ιστορία" from Greek, that doesn't have a "his" syllable) to the fact that history is dominated by male figures. Some have suggested the term should be changed to "herstory" to recognise the contribution of women to history. To my mind, thinking that "blacklisting" has racist connotations because we all African people "black" also, is a similar kind of confusion. Edit: to clarify what I'm trying to say. The fact that "black" is in "blacklist" is a coincidence and nothing to do with racism. Same as the fact that "his" is in "history".
  - gruez 6y ago
    >Some have suggested the term should be changed to "herstory" to recognise the contribution of women to history. Which is funny in itself. "history" is sexist because it's male, so let's do some affirmative action and make it sexist in the other direction!
- yxhuvud 6y ago
  Well, the function of a blacklist tend to have negative connotations, so that those connotations match how they are actually used seems like a feature, not like something to avoid.
- loco5niner 6y ago
  Right, and the GP addressed this by giving a counter-example. Also, there is also debate about the 'redskins'.

luckylion 6y ago

> The problem I’m starting to see is that the continued use of phrases like this (master/slave, blacklist/whitelist) can be a constant reminder to some that they “don’t belong here.” I don't mean to be rude or belittle someone's feelings, but isn't that pretty much a sign of being mentally unwell? "This text uses blacklist to mean a list of words not being allowed. My skin is brown. This is a dog whistle to racists and a reminder that I am not welcome in tech" sounds like something that signals a need for therapy and potentially medication, not a rewrite of the documentation.

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CodeGlitch 6y ago

>they are a reminder that racism exists. So you want everyone to forget racism exists? (Because it does BTW).