6 ms·

Centrists would be somewhat rare it it hadn't become a slur for both extremes to label anyone that's not an extremist. Moderates are far more common than centr

by phaus 6y ago

Centrists would be somewhat rare it it hadn't become a slur for both extremes to label anyone that's not an extremist. Moderates are far more common than centrists. But these day's you're either completely toxic and insane or you get ridiculed as a centrist for not caring enough.

danaris 6y ago
These days, to be a "centrist" is to try to take a position between "I think all human beings should be treated equally and granted basic rights and dignity" and "I think only white, cisgender, straight, abled, Christian men of upper middle class or better should be given full rights. Everyone else is a second-class citizen or worse." This is, in significant part, due to the enforced two-party system in the US ("enforced" by our first-past-the-post, winner-takes-all election system), which ensures that when a party takes any particular ideology or position into itself, as the Republican party has taken this white supremacy into itself, it is impossible to support anything the party champions without also de facto supporting its most extreme positions. Get rid of the literal Nazis on the right, make "people should be allowed to live their lives without fear of constant oppression for harmless aspects of themselves" a completely apolitical opinion, and then maybe "centrist" can become a term that's not worthy of derision again.
- aspenmayer 6y ago
  Agreed on all points. Appeals to centrism are a negotiation tactic; not with the one considered too extreme who should be more moderate, but to the third party who is watching who is sympathetic to the one calling for moderation. It benefits the status quo, and therefore is innately conservative.
  - humanrebar 6y ago
    No, centrism is to also find areas of consensus and pursue them, however imperfect. For instance, criminal justice reform has made some progress recently. Gradual decriminalization of some recreational drugs as well.
    - aspenmayer 6y ago
      I don’t disagree. I view the two as mutually compatible rather than exclusive. Incrementalism is working within the Overton window to affect change within the system. Progress happens in fits and starts as well as by design and committee.
- phaus 6y ago
  This is exactly what I was talking about. You make a bunch of assumptions about peoples' political opinions that are incorrectly portraying them as centrists and supporters of nazis if they don't adopt your world view. "Us or them" is killing America. Lack of nuance and intelligent discourse is destroying us. There's more to the extreme left than "Everyone deserves to be treated equally and with dignity." Politics in the US lacks nuance. You can be politically moderate and lean towards the left. It isn't simply conservative wolves in centrist clothing. I can vehemently disagree about many things that extreme leftists do and still vote for one over Donald Trump. But that doesn't mean voting for Donald Trump automatically makes someone a Nazi either.
  - CamperBob2 6y ago
    But that doesn't mean voting for Donald Trump automatically makes someone a Nazi either. Doesn't it make them a Nazi enabler, though? Is that really much better than carrying the card and wearing the pin? The Soviets had a couple of good terms that can be recycled to describe Trump Voters Who Aren't Nazis: one was "fellow travelers," and the other was... probably a bit too inflammatory to post here.
    - mistermann 6y ago
      > Doesn't it make them a Nazi enabler, though? Calling Trump a nazi seems incredibly disrespectful to people and their family who actually lost their lives to real nazis. Are you aware that you don't actually know what Trump supporters think? That your opinion is based on heuristics running on top of the absolutely tiny sample of the real world that you've been exposed to, much of it likely incredibly biased if not outright untrue?
      - CamperBob2 6y ago
        Are you aware that you don't actually know what Trump supporters think? I grew up with them. Trust me, I know what they think. This period of history may or may not be what Joe Strummer prepared us for, but it certainly looks like the one Hannah Arendt, Milton Mayer, and Alexander Solzhenitsyn prepared us for.
- wherewillitlead 6y ago
  How do you situate Max in Oakland on this spectrum? Taibbi writes about him at length in the article - and his original comments were https://twitter.com/lhfang/status/1268390704645943297 https://twitter.com/lhfang/status/1268390704645943297. I'm not asking a rhetorical question, genuinely interested in how you see this. It doesn't seem like to me like he falls in any of the categories you listed. Same with Lee Fang, the interviewer who got attacked for publishing Max's remarks.
- thisiszilff 6y ago
  The charitable interpretation of the centrists position is trying to straddle the line between "I believe the government should be responsible for intervening in order to secure equal outcomes for all people" and "I believe individuals should be responsible for their owns lives and own outcomes." Or something along those lines. Centrists are not centrists because they embrace some negative, immoral 'other side', but because they recognize the other side has it's own values that are good and worth preserving. Many centrists likely see themselves as trying to strike a balance between these values.
- djohnston 6y ago
  Lol this sentiment is exactly the problem being discussed and you've inadvertently provided a great example for the thread to examine. Thanks!
  - dang 6y ago
    Please don't be a jerk in HN threads, no matter how wrong another commenter is or you feel they are. Nothing good is going to come of it. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

by phaus 6y ago

danaris 6y ago

These days, to be a "centrist" is to try to take a position between "I think all human beings should be treated equally and granted basic rights and dignity" and "I think only white, cisgender, straight, abled, Christian men of upper middle class or better should be given full rights. Everyone else is a second-class citizen or worse." This is, in significant part, due to the enforced two-party system in the US ("enforced" by our first-past-the-post, winner-takes-all election system), which ensures that when a party takes any particular ideology or position into itself, as the Republican party has taken this white supremacy into itself, it is impossible to support anything the party champions without also de facto supporting its most extreme positions. Get rid of the literal Nazis on the right, make "people should be allowed to live their lives without fear of constant oppression for harmless aspects of themselves" a completely apolitical opinion, and then maybe "centrist" can become a term that's not worthy of derision again.

aspenmayer 6y ago
Agreed on all points. Appeals to centrism are a negotiation tactic; not with the one considered too extreme who should be more moderate, but to the third party who is watching who is sympathetic to the one calling for moderation. It benefits the status quo, and therefore is innately conservative.
- humanrebar 6y ago
  No, centrism is to also find areas of consensus and pursue them, however imperfect. For instance, criminal justice reform has made some progress recently. Gradual decriminalization of some recreational drugs as well.
  - aspenmayer 6y ago
    I don’t disagree. I view the two as mutually compatible rather than exclusive. Incrementalism is working within the Overton window to affect change within the system. Progress happens in fits and starts as well as by design and committee.
phaus 6y ago
This is exactly what I was talking about. You make a bunch of assumptions about peoples' political opinions that are incorrectly portraying them as centrists and supporters of nazis if they don't adopt your world view. "Us or them" is killing America. Lack of nuance and intelligent discourse is destroying us. There's more to the extreme left than "Everyone deserves to be treated equally and with dignity." Politics in the US lacks nuance. You can be politically moderate and lean towards the left. It isn't simply conservative wolves in centrist clothing. I can vehemently disagree about many things that extreme leftists do and still vote for one over Donald Trump. But that doesn't mean voting for Donald Trump automatically makes someone a Nazi either.
- CamperBob2 6y ago
  But that doesn't mean voting for Donald Trump automatically makes someone a Nazi either. Doesn't it make them a Nazi enabler, though? Is that really much better than carrying the card and wearing the pin? The Soviets had a couple of good terms that can be recycled to describe Trump Voters Who Aren't Nazis: one was "fellow travelers," and the other was... probably a bit too inflammatory to post here.
  - mistermann 6y ago
    > Doesn't it make them a Nazi enabler, though? Calling Trump a nazi seems incredibly disrespectful to people and their family who actually lost their lives to real nazis. Are you aware that you don't actually know what Trump supporters think? That your opinion is based on heuristics running on top of the absolutely tiny sample of the real world that you've been exposed to, much of it likely incredibly biased if not outright untrue?
    - CamperBob2 6y ago
      Are you aware that you don't actually know what Trump supporters think? I grew up with them. Trust me, I know what they think. This period of history may or may not be what Joe Strummer prepared us for, but it certainly looks like the one Hannah Arendt, Milton Mayer, and Alexander Solzhenitsyn prepared us for.
wherewillitlead 6y ago
How do you situate Max in Oakland on this spectrum? Taibbi writes about him at length in the article - and his original comments were https://twitter.com/lhfang/status/1268390704645943297 https://twitter.com/lhfang/status/1268390704645943297. I'm not asking a rhetorical question, genuinely interested in how you see this. It doesn't seem like to me like he falls in any of the categories you listed. Same with Lee Fang, the interviewer who got attacked for publishing Max's remarks.
thisiszilff 6y ago
The charitable interpretation of the centrists position is trying to straddle the line between "I believe the government should be responsible for intervening in order to secure equal outcomes for all people" and "I believe individuals should be responsible for their owns lives and own outcomes." Or something along those lines. Centrists are not centrists because they embrace some negative, immoral 'other side', but because they recognize the other side has it's own values that are good and worth preserving. Many centrists likely see themselves as trying to strike a balance between these values.
djohnston 6y ago
Lol this sentiment is exactly the problem being discussed and you've inadvertently provided a great example for the thread to examine. Thanks!
- dang 6y ago
  Please don't be a jerk in HN threads, no matter how wrong another commenter is or you feel they are. Nothing good is going to come of it. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html