5 ms·

You’re on shaky ground there. The US does imprison more of its citizens on a per capita basis than any other comparable nation. The US isn’t the moral beacon

You’re on shaky ground there. The US does imprison more of its citizens on a per capita basis than any other comparable nation. The US isn’t the moral beacon it was billed to be. I’ll stop there.

komali2 6y ago
And the USA did allow violence against democratic organizers last week. But those same organizers weren't shipped to Guantanamo for indefinite periods of time for "reeducation." The USA suffers from some of what it accuses the PRC - it is still not the PRC.
- katbyte 6y ago
  This. As outraged as I have been by America’s actions towards their protestors it’s honestly a lot different then HK let along tiananmen square (which my iPhone refuses to recognize.. well that’s fucked up yet expected I guess, and least Taiwan and 🇹🇼 Are there) Trump is doing trump but a lot of politicians and others have spoken out and marched - would that happen in China?
  - jrockway 6y ago
    My iPhone doesn't attempt to censor tiananmen square. Typing "tian" into the home screen search bar yields "tiananmen square", "tiana", "tiananmen square massacre", and "tiana musarra".
    - iso947 6y ago
      Indeed, it’s a major tourism draw in Beijing, why would it be censored?
    - katbyte 6y ago
      Maybe it’s chrome? I got a red squiggly line under tiananmen and presumed it was iOS. That’s my bad
      - jrockway 6y ago
        Maybe the spell checker wanted you to capitalize it? Discord's spell check constantly tells me I've spelled "chicago", "wednesday", and "february" wrong. They're spelled right, but because they're proper nouns, they MUST be capitalized at any cost. It drives me mad.
- morelisp 6y ago
  > weren't shipped to Guantanamo for indefinite periods of time for "reeducation." But Ramsey Orta essentially was. The difference in the USA is solely one of pervasiveness, focus, intensity, not any particular outcome.
- Aunche 6y ago
  Nobody is going to disagree that the US treats its citizens better, but we're talking about country's foreign influence here. China doesn't cripple the economy or bomb other countries they disagree with.
  - rayiner 6y ago
    > China doesn't cripple the economy or bomb other countries they disagree with. Is that a bad thing if we're trying to promulgate our values?
    - joyfulmantis 6y ago
      Yes it is, no matter how good you think your values are the end never justifies the means
    - fit2rule 6y ago
      Societies which promulgate their values by murdering innocent people don't last long. Certainly you can see some fairly decent examples on the History Channel ...
    - Aunche 6y ago
      I mean from the CCP's perspective, China is promulgating their values to the Uyghurs.
  - komali2 6y ago
    Do they not? They certainly were willing to outright invade a sovereign nation of mostly peaceful monks (Tibet) with ground forces, then claim the territory as its own, something I don't think the USA has done since Puerto Rico (the expansionism specifically). They also challenge the sovereignty of Taiwan regularly - it was China who refused to allow two sovereign nations of Chinese origin when the UN switched the Chinese seat to the PRC. Different countries different tools. The PRC has only really come into its element in the last 3 decades. The USA's foreign policy advocates-through-violence (CIA) don't have the best track record for success but they do have 80 years of experience. Give China time and I expect they'll start doing the same.
Melting_Harps 6y ago
> The USA suffers from some of what it accuses the PRC - it is still not the PRC. > The US isn’t the moral beacon it was billed to be. Agreed. I think one difference being that Citizens can, with great personal peril to their own safety and well being, use the Right to assemble and protest to effect change to address systemic corruption. As an activist with a background in protests in various demos myself, I just wonder what the World would have looked like if this had happened in 2008. There have been countless examples of senseless, illegal police brutality and murder during that time. I'm no fan of the movement but Occupy members were tazed, beaten, sprayed on a regular basis; and most of them were middle class white US Citizens. The Legal system has not been a viable option for most to find redress to these ills, let alone justice, so they make taking to the streets the only option. In the PRC doing that means you will be disspeared, and it can cost you your life if you speak out as seen with Li Wenlian, who's wife just had their child: https://tucson.com/news/world/widow-of-chinese-whistleblower-doctor-gives-birth-to-their-son/article_d5429ec6-c01b-5ea8-ba68-934797417e42.html https://tucson.com/news/world/widow-of-chinese-whistleblower...
- iso947 6y ago
  People at tiannamem square protested. Tanks turned up and refused to run them over People in nyc protests, police officers ran them over Maybe China is worse than the US, but there doesn’t seem to be as much in it as there was 30 years ago.
  - rayiner 6y ago
    https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/tiananmen-square-massacre-takes-place https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/tiananmen-square... > On June 4, 1989, however, Chinese troops and security police stormed through Tiananmen Square, firing indiscriminately into the crowds of protesters. Turmoil ensued, as tens of thousands of the young students tried to escape the rampaging Chinese forces. Other protesters fought back, stoning the attacking troops and overturning and setting fire to military vehicles. Reporters and Western diplomats on the scene estimated that at least 300, and perhaps thousands, of the protesters had been killed and as many as 10,000 were arrested. > The savagery of the Chinese government’s attack shocked both its allies and Cold War enemies. Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev declared that he was saddened by the events in China. He said he hoped that the government would adopt his own domestic reform program and begin to democratize the Chinese political system. In two weeks of protests around the country, 19 people are dead: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcevoy/2020/06/08/14-days-of-protests-19-dead/#4f36fd024de4 https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcevoy/2020/06/08/14-days.... Three were possibly shot by the police, under circumstances where the allegation is they opened fire first. Two police officers are dead as a result of drive-by shootings. The contrast with China couldn't be starker. Here we have protests that involved burning down police stations, and a heavily-armed country where gangs have used the protests as pre-texts for shootings. And we've had a handful of officer-involved deaths. In China, by contrast, police killed hundreds of people at a peaceful protest involving a disarmed population.
Lio 6y ago
As long as the Americans can publicly point out that their leader is a bit fat without expecting to be punished they can point out the suppressing free speech is wrong. To be a moral beacon here America doesn’t have to be perfect. They just have to be able to say that their hypothetical leader is doing a bad job and that he should be replaced ...or not of they want to. From that all else follows.
- fit2rule 6y ago
  Your argument falls flat as soon as Americans start protesting the innocent lives lost in America's illegal wars - at this point, American censorship and attacks on independent thought match those of the PRC, even exceeding their capabilities in some cases (Assange, etc.)
mellow2020 6y ago
> You’re on shaky ground there. Would you accept prison or murder as counter-argument to this or other opinions of yours? If not, you prefer free speech. > The US isn’t the moral beacon it was billed to be. Who billed it thusly? In my books, the US or other nations don't determine the value of free speech, their respect for free speech determines their value.
stale2002 6y ago
If you honestly believe that laws in China aren't worse than US law, then I don't know what to tell you... I think that most people can obviously see who has the worse laws, regarding things like censorship.

komali2 6y ago

And the USA did allow violence against democratic organizers last week. But those same organizers weren't shipped to Guantanamo for indefinite periods of time for "reeducation." The USA suffers from some of what it accuses the PRC - it is still not the PRC.

katbyte 6y ago
This. As outraged as I have been by America’s actions towards their protestors it’s honestly a lot different then HK let along tiananmen square (which my iPhone refuses to recognize.. well that’s fucked up yet expected I guess, and least Taiwan and 🇹🇼 Are there) Trump is doing trump but a lot of politicians and others have spoken out and marched - would that happen in China?
- jrockway 6y ago
  My iPhone doesn't attempt to censor tiananmen square. Typing "tian" into the home screen search bar yields "tiananmen square", "tiana", "tiananmen square massacre", and "tiana musarra".
  - iso947 6y ago
    Indeed, it’s a major tourism draw in Beijing, why would it be censored?
  - katbyte 6y ago
    Maybe it’s chrome? I got a red squiggly line under tiananmen and presumed it was iOS. That’s my bad
    - jrockway 6y ago
      Maybe the spell checker wanted you to capitalize it? Discord's spell check constantly tells me I've spelled "chicago", "wednesday", and "february" wrong. They're spelled right, but because they're proper nouns, they MUST be capitalized at any cost. It drives me mad.
morelisp 6y ago
> weren't shipped to Guantanamo for indefinite periods of time for "reeducation." But Ramsey Orta essentially was. The difference in the USA is solely one of pervasiveness, focus, intensity, not any particular outcome.
Aunche 6y ago
Nobody is going to disagree that the US treats its citizens better, but we're talking about country's foreign influence here. China doesn't cripple the economy or bomb other countries they disagree with.
- rayiner 6y ago
  > China doesn't cripple the economy or bomb other countries they disagree with. Is that a bad thing if we're trying to promulgate our values?
  - joyfulmantis 6y ago
    Yes it is, no matter how good you think your values are the end never justifies the means
  - fit2rule 6y ago
    Societies which promulgate their values by murdering innocent people don't last long. Certainly you can see some fairly decent examples on the History Channel ...
  - Aunche 6y ago
    I mean from the CCP's perspective, China is promulgating their values to the Uyghurs.
- komali2 6y ago
  Do they not? They certainly were willing to outright invade a sovereign nation of mostly peaceful monks (Tibet) with ground forces, then claim the territory as its own, something I don't think the USA has done since Puerto Rico (the expansionism specifically). They also challenge the sovereignty of Taiwan regularly - it was China who refused to allow two sovereign nations of Chinese origin when the UN switched the Chinese seat to the PRC. Different countries different tools. The PRC has only really come into its element in the last 3 decades. The USA's foreign policy advocates-through-violence (CIA) don't have the best track record for success but they do have 80 years of experience. Give China time and I expect they'll start doing the same.

Melting_Harps 6y ago

> The USA suffers from some of what it accuses the PRC - it is still not the PRC. > The US isn’t the moral beacon it was billed to be. Agreed. I think one difference being that Citizens can, with great personal peril to their own safety and well being, use the Right to assemble and protest to effect change to address systemic corruption. As an activist with a background in protests in various demos myself, I just wonder what the World would have looked like if this had happened in 2008. There have been countless examples of senseless, illegal police brutality and murder during that time. I'm no fan of the movement but Occupy members were tazed, beaten, sprayed on a regular basis; and most of them were middle class white US Citizens. The Legal system has not been a viable option for most to find redress to these ills, let alone justice, so they make taking to the streets the only option. In the PRC doing that means you will be disspeared, and it can cost you your life if you speak out as seen with Li Wenlian, who's wife just had their child: https://tucson.com/news/world/widow-of-chinese-whistleblower-doctor-gives-birth-to-their-son/article_d5429ec6-c01b-5ea8-ba68-934797417e42.html https://tucson.com/news/world/widow-of-chinese-whistleblower...

iso947 6y ago
People at tiannamem square protested. Tanks turned up and refused to run them over People in nyc protests, police officers ran them over Maybe China is worse than the US, but there doesn’t seem to be as much in it as there was 30 years ago.
- rayiner 6y ago
  https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/tiananmen-square-massacre-takes-place https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/tiananmen-square... > On June 4, 1989, however, Chinese troops and security police stormed through Tiananmen Square, firing indiscriminately into the crowds of protesters. Turmoil ensued, as tens of thousands of the young students tried to escape the rampaging Chinese forces. Other protesters fought back, stoning the attacking troops and overturning and setting fire to military vehicles. Reporters and Western diplomats on the scene estimated that at least 300, and perhaps thousands, of the protesters had been killed and as many as 10,000 were arrested. > The savagery of the Chinese government’s attack shocked both its allies and Cold War enemies. Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev declared that he was saddened by the events in China. He said he hoped that the government would adopt his own domestic reform program and begin to democratize the Chinese political system. In two weeks of protests around the country, 19 people are dead: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcevoy/2020/06/08/14-days-of-protests-19-dead/#4f36fd024de4 https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcevoy/2020/06/08/14-days.... Three were possibly shot by the police, under circumstances where the allegation is they opened fire first. Two police officers are dead as a result of drive-by shootings. The contrast with China couldn't be starker. Here we have protests that involved burning down police stations, and a heavily-armed country where gangs have used the protests as pre-texts for shootings. And we've had a handful of officer-involved deaths. In China, by contrast, police killed hundreds of people at a peaceful protest involving a disarmed population.

Lio 6y ago

As long as the Americans can publicly point out that their leader is a bit fat without expecting to be punished they can point out the suppressing free speech is wrong. To be a moral beacon here America doesn’t have to be perfect. They just have to be able to say that their hypothetical leader is doing a bad job and that he should be replaced ...or not of they want to. From that all else follows.

fit2rule 6y ago
Your argument falls flat as soon as Americans start protesting the innocent lives lost in America's illegal wars - at this point, American censorship and attacks on independent thought match those of the PRC, even exceeding their capabilities in some cases (Assange, etc.)

mellow2020 6y ago

> You’re on shaky ground there. Would you accept prison or murder as counter-argument to this or other opinions of yours? If not, you prefer free speech. > The US isn’t the moral beacon it was billed to be. Who billed it thusly? In my books, the US or other nations don't determine the value of free speech, their respect for free speech determines their value.

stale2002 6y ago

If you honestly believe that laws in China aren't worse than US law, then I don't know what to tell you... I think that most people can obviously see who has the worse laws, regarding things like censorship.