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An author can define a fictional society's language and thought processes any way they please. I read The Dispossessed over 20 years ago and can't recall the qu

An author can define a fictional society's language and thought processes any way they please. I read The Dispossessed over 20 years ago and can't recall the quote you meant. If it wasn't about the nature of real reality, but about the relationship of the author to a constructed world, then referring to it was inconsistent with my expectation of relevance, and I did misunderstand. The only clarification I can think of for my response is to reiterate that the context I was assuming was the belief that controlling language allows one to control thoughts of real people. My reaction isn't that it should or shouldn't, just that it obviously doesn't. Maybe "control" would be a better word than "shape", after further contemplation. I agree that words shape thought, because in general, actions shape thought. But nobody can control thought by controlling language. It's futile. Unless you are privileged to be designing the universe.

pmoriarty 6y ago
"that the context I was assuming was the belief that controlling language allows one to control thoughts of real people. My reaction isn't that it should or shouldn't, just that it obviously doesn't." Is the government subjecting people to enhanced interrogation or torture? Are they placing them in detention or prison? Are people undocumented immigrants or illegals? Is someone a <respectful term> or "just a <derrogatory term>"? Is someone a freedom fighter, a terrorist, or a traitor? To the Nazis, were Jewish people human or subhuman? Can a given historical event be called a genocide? To me it's pretty clear the words used to describe people and their actions influences how these people and actions are viewed and understood. This is one reason why propaganda is so effective, and why violence often follows the dehumanization of certain groups of people, in which word choice tends to play an important role.
- perl4ever 6y ago
  Any examples you can give demonstrate different thoughts that people can still have, because the attempt to control has failed. If there is an example of successful thought control through language, how is anyone going to be able to think of it, by definition?
  - pmoriarty 6y ago
    I don't believe that some thoughts are impossible for users of certain words, but do believe their thoughts are influenced by the words they use and hear used all around them, and some thoughts are less likely in such people. For instance, in Nazis who truly believed that Jewish people were subhuman, empathetic thoughts towards Jewish people were less likely. Also, I don't agree that attempts at control have failed. I think they have often succeeded.
    - perl4ever 6y ago
      This is confusing me greatly for a fairly brief comment. - "Thoughts are not influenced by words" would be a silly claim, and I disavow it. - I am disoriented by your throwing out "some thoughts are impossible for users of certain words", not knowing who and where you think that was claimed. That's not the only way one could try to control thoughts with words. The method people seem to try a lot is to eliminate words to prevent thoughts, which seems like kind of the opposite. - On what basis do you presume you have good insight into the psychology of Nazis? I mean really, that's awfully glib. - Your last two sentences don't seem mutually exclusive, but having them together seems to imply they should be, which means I don't know what you are trying to say. Can you give an example of successful control at any rate?
      - danmaz74 6y ago
        Making some thoughts impossible by controlling language was a point in George Orwell's 1984.
        perl4ever 6y ago
        It was referenced back up at the top. And 1984 has been part of my mental landscape for maybe a quarter century, so my opinion that reality is different has been calcified gradually over time.
  - KSteffensen 6y ago
    It may not be possible to control but it's certainly possible to subconsciously influence, which is as good or better. Advertisement works, even though it's not thought control.
- sfj 6y ago
  > To me it's pretty clear the words used to describe people and their actions influences how these people and actions are viewed and understood. It can have unintended consequences, however. For me, hearing the phrase “undocumented immigrants” just irritates me and actually distracts me from the point the utterer is trying to make. It's like a word pretzel designed to get around saying “illegal”.
- Retric 6y ago
  Today enhanced interrogation just means torture to me. Which quickly happens to any such phrase, they may start as spin but quickly turn into a euphemism and eventually gain all the negative connotations as the original.

pmoriarty 6y ago

"that the context I was assuming was the belief that controlling language allows one to control thoughts of real people. My reaction isn't that it should or shouldn't, just that it obviously doesn't." Is the government subjecting people to enhanced interrogation or torture? Are they placing them in detention or prison? Are people undocumented immigrants or illegals? Is someone a <respectful term> or "just a <derrogatory term>"? Is someone a freedom fighter, a terrorist, or a traitor? To the Nazis, were Jewish people human or subhuman? Can a given historical event be called a genocide? To me it's pretty clear the words used to describe people and their actions influences how these people and actions are viewed and understood. This is one reason why propaganda is so effective, and why violence often follows the dehumanization of certain groups of people, in which word choice tends to play an important role.

perl4ever 6y ago
Any examples you can give demonstrate different thoughts that people can still have, because the attempt to control has failed. If there is an example of successful thought control through language, how is anyone going to be able to think of it, by definition?
- pmoriarty 6y ago
  I don't believe that some thoughts are impossible for users of certain words, but do believe their thoughts are influenced by the words they use and hear used all around them, and some thoughts are less likely in such people. For instance, in Nazis who truly believed that Jewish people were subhuman, empathetic thoughts towards Jewish people were less likely. Also, I don't agree that attempts at control have failed. I think they have often succeeded.
  - perl4ever 6y ago
    This is confusing me greatly for a fairly brief comment. - "Thoughts are not influenced by words" would be a silly claim, and I disavow it. - I am disoriented by your throwing out "some thoughts are impossible for users of certain words", not knowing who and where you think that was claimed. That's not the only way one could try to control thoughts with words. The method people seem to try a lot is to eliminate words to prevent thoughts, which seems like kind of the opposite. - On what basis do you presume you have good insight into the psychology of Nazis? I mean really, that's awfully glib. - Your last two sentences don't seem mutually exclusive, but having them together seems to imply they should be, which means I don't know what you are trying to say. Can you give an example of successful control at any rate?
    - danmaz74 6y ago
      Making some thoughts impossible by controlling language was a point in George Orwell's 1984.
      - perl4ever 6y ago
        It was referenced back up at the top. And 1984 has been part of my mental landscape for maybe a quarter century, so my opinion that reality is different has been calcified gradually over time.
- KSteffensen 6y ago
  It may not be possible to control but it's certainly possible to subconsciously influence, which is as good or better. Advertisement works, even though it's not thought control.
sfj 6y ago
> To me it's pretty clear the words used to describe people and their actions influences how these people and actions are viewed and understood. It can have unintended consequences, however. For me, hearing the phrase “undocumented immigrants” just irritates me and actually distracts me from the point the utterer is trying to make. It's like a word pretzel designed to get around saying “illegal”.
Retric 6y ago
Today enhanced interrogation just means torture to me. Which quickly happens to any such phrase, they may start as spin but quickly turn into a euphemism and eventually gain all the negative connotations as the original.