5 ms·

Is it counter productive in an environment where hiring is difficult to go too niche though? Our entire server codebase, baring a few external libraries, is Sc

by weego 16y ago

Is it counter productive in an environment where hiring is difficult to go too niche though? Our entire server codebase, baring a few external libraries, is Scala (working with Lift) which has been an awesome experience but there is a nagging doubt in my mind that if/when we need to start looking to add in developers we will either need to invest in cross-training a java dev or end up paying out probably more than we could/should afford to get a seasoned java dev who trained themselves in Scala already. If over a short period of time your choice gets some major traction then it will work in your favour, but if not then you could be out in the cold or risking employing someone with no real provable history.

jared314 16y ago
You might not want someone who can't learn a new language.
gaius 16y ago
If a developer is so much more productive, why shouldn't you pay a premium for their skills? Remember in business there is no "cheap" or "expensive". There's only "worth the money" and "not".
- jshen 16y ago
  How do you know if they are productive before hiring them?
  - gaius 16y ago
    Someone who is "a seasoned java dev who trained themselves in Scala already" will have a track record of Getting Stuff Done of course. Also see http://www.paulgraham.com/pypar.html http://www.paulgraham.com/pypar.html
    - jshen 16y ago
      far easier said than done. Have you hired a lot of people? What form does their track record come in? A list of projects on their resume?
      - gaius 16y ago
        Yes, actually :-) Most people's CVs (we call them) are pretty poor indicators of their abilities (because, no fault of their own, they take other people's bad advice on CVs) but all I talk about in interviews is, what have you done and what difference did it make. I'm not perfect at it by any means, but my hires usually work out pretty well...
        jshen 16y ago
        I wasn't trying to give you a hard time. I've been hiring for years and it's really hard.
    - andrewvc 16y ago
      That's only sometimes true. There are plenty of intelligent developers learning the newest and coolest languages who'd I'd never hire. Why? Because learning cool tech and Getting Stuff Done are two very different things. While it is true that most developers suck at writing code, knowing Scala doesn't tell me whether you: 1. Have enough discipline to do the boring, tedious parts of your job 2. Know how to prioritize tasks 3. Can write easily maintainable code 4. Can work well with others. Technical ability is only one part of an employee.
      - gaius 16y ago
        I quoted the word "seasoned" too for a reason!
MichaelGG 16y ago
Well, Jane Street Capital uses OCaml. According to "Caml trading"[1], hiring got easier when using OCaml: "Personnel is one area in which OCaml has been an unmitigated success for us. Most importantly, using OCaml helps us ﬁnd, hire, and retain great programmers." 1: http://www.janestreet.com/minsky_weeks-jfp_18.pdf http://www.janestreet.com/minsky_weeks-jfp_18.pdf
- chollida1 16y ago
  To be fair, Jane Street probably is helped in this regard by being able to pay great 6 figure salaries and 6 figure bonuses to their developers.
  - cygwin98 16y ago
    I think we need to compare apples to apples here: other competing hedge funds may have to pay a lot more to have those hackers code in C++, Java, or (gasp) VBA.
    - chollida1 16y ago
      Fair point.
  - gaius 16y ago
    ... to a workforce that can jump ship to a competing firm for a similar package at any time. Retention is a strategic advantage in any industry where the "means of production" are between your employees ears.
iamelgringo 16y ago
Chances are that basing your startup on Scala/Lift is probably going to be a net plus for you when recruiting new staff. It says a lot about the technology culture at your company that you are using a functional language. It's also something of a weeder. If an engineer can't wrap his head around Scala in short order, you probably don't want to hire him. My guess is you'll probably have to hire a lot less frequently than a typical Java shop.
- riffraff 16y ago
  But isnt there also experience to consider? I'm sure a smart person can pick up any language but it always takes time to learn the idioms, gotchas, apis and supporting tools, i believe

by weego 16y ago

jared314 16y ago

You might not want someone who can't learn a new language.

gaius 16y ago

If a developer is so much more productive, why shouldn't you pay a premium for their skills? Remember in business there is no "cheap" or "expensive". There's only "worth the money" and "not".

jshen 16y ago
How do you know if they are productive before hiring them?
- gaius 16y ago
  Someone who is "a seasoned java dev who trained themselves in Scala already" will have a track record of Getting Stuff Done of course. Also see http://www.paulgraham.com/pypar.html http://www.paulgraham.com/pypar.html
  - jshen 16y ago
    far easier said than done. Have you hired a lot of people? What form does their track record come in? A list of projects on their resume?
    - gaius 16y ago
      Yes, actually :-) Most people's CVs (we call them) are pretty poor indicators of their abilities (because, no fault of their own, they take other people's bad advice on CVs) but all I talk about in interviews is, what have you done and what difference did it make. I'm not perfect at it by any means, but my hires usually work out pretty well...
      - jshen 16y ago
        I wasn't trying to give you a hard time. I've been hiring for years and it's really hard.
  - andrewvc 16y ago
    That's only sometimes true. There are plenty of intelligent developers learning the newest and coolest languages who'd I'd never hire. Why? Because learning cool tech and Getting Stuff Done are two very different things. While it is true that most developers suck at writing code, knowing Scala doesn't tell me whether you: 1. Have enough discipline to do the boring, tedious parts of your job 2. Know how to prioritize tasks 3. Can write easily maintainable code 4. Can work well with others. Technical ability is only one part of an employee.
    - gaius 16y ago
      I quoted the word "seasoned" too for a reason!

MichaelGG 16y ago

Well, Jane Street Capital uses OCaml. According to "Caml trading"[1], hiring got easier when using OCaml: "Personnel is one area in which OCaml has been an unmitigated success for us. Most importantly, using OCaml helps us ﬁnd, hire, and retain great programmers." 1: http://www.janestreet.com/minsky_weeks-jfp_18.pdf http://www.janestreet.com/minsky_weeks-jfp_18.pdf

chollida1 16y ago
To be fair, Jane Street probably is helped in this regard by being able to pay great 6 figure salaries and 6 figure bonuses to their developers.
- cygwin98 16y ago
  I think we need to compare apples to apples here: other competing hedge funds may have to pay a lot more to have those hackers code in C++, Java, or (gasp) VBA.
  - chollida1 16y ago
    Fair point.
- gaius 16y ago
  ... to a workforce that can jump ship to a competing firm for a similar package at any time. Retention is a strategic advantage in any industry where the "means of production" are between your employees ears.

iamelgringo 16y ago

Chances are that basing your startup on Scala/Lift is probably going to be a net plus for you when recruiting new staff. It says a lot about the technology culture at your company that you are using a functional language. It's also something of a weeder. If an engineer can't wrap his head around Scala in short order, you probably don't want to hire him. My guess is you'll probably have to hire a lot less frequently than a typical Java shop.

riffraff 16y ago
But isnt there also experience to consider? I'm sure a smart person can pick up any language but it always takes time to learn the idioms, gotchas, apis and supporting tools, i believe