4 ms·

"Wang is charged with visa fraud, in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 1546(a). If convicted, he faces a maximum statutory penalty of ten years in prison and a fine of

"Wang is charged with visa fraud, in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 1546(a). If convicted, he faces a maximum statutory penalty of ten years in prison and a fine of $250,000." The US has ludicrous prison sentences. Lie on an application = 10 years in prison. That is insane. Good luck getting out alive as a 5'5" 130 lbs guy in a federal prison covered in covid19 for 10 years. Federal prison doesn't have good time - so bring some good books. Instead could we just charge this guy, make him pay huge fines, make him teach classes, make him explain what really happened and move on? Instead! I bet a senator out there is trying to pass a law making it 40 years.

marcinzm 6y ago
>make him explain what really happened According to the court documents, what really happened was that he was trying to steal intellectual property for China. These long sentences exist because state actors would otherwise just keep sending people until one succeeded with no downside.
- ransom1538 6y ago
  ? Not following. They just caught a guy doing it with harsh sentences. China already has no downsides. Having this person work with us OUT of prison would hurt China much more.
  - gpm 6y ago
    Having spies go to prison for long periods of time tend to decrease the incentives of other people to become spies. Unlike most criminals, spies are probably moderately rational about risk/reward, as such this is probably actually an effective deterrent. /end unsupported opinion.
    - strbean 6y ago
      What are the odds anyone in their applicant pool hears about this?
    - godelski 6y ago
      I may be totally off base, but I've heard that spies are generally treated well. That they are mostly traded. That way when our spies are caught they aren't mistreated either. Clearly situations matter and the sensitivity of what was stolen.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
- boomboomsubban 6y ago
  >what really happened was that he was trying to steal intellectual property for China. If these court documents can show that, why isn't he being charged for it?
hntxfelon 6y ago
> Good luck getting out alive as a 5'5" 130 lbs guy in a federal prison covered in covid19 for 10 years State prison is worse. covid19 wasn't an issue, but I went into a Texas prison smaller than that (5'9", 123lbs) and served six years, day for day.
hourislate 6y ago
>The US has ludicrous prison sentences. Lie on an application = 10 years in prison. How would the Chinese respond if it was an American stealing research funded by the PLA and was sent by the USA to study the Lab so he could bring back the know how to replicate it. I wonder why the Chinese don't take the same approach you advocate for the USA. Here are some current examples of how the Chinese Gov deals with supposed spies and whatever... From what I understand they have tortured a British National recently. https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/china-tortured-detained-british-diplomat-says-uk-government-20200611-p551u0.html https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/china-tortured-detained-... Here is the case of two Canadians still in prison on some kind of drummed up charges... https://globalnews.ca/news/6270013/canadians-detained-china-1-year/ https://globalnews.ca/news/6270013/canadians-detained-china-...
sebastialonso 6y ago
I don't follow. The charge doesn't seem to be for the visa charge, it's evidently because of the state-sponsored theft of IP. I too would argue for longer, harsher sentences for foreign spies. Force rival nations to stop or to get better at it.
- detaro 6y ago
  So they mention a specific law being violated, and the punishment under that law, but "The charge doesn't seem to be for the visa charge"?
  - godelski 6y ago
    Those questions are so they can stop someone and continue investigating. Why do you think there's questions on the visa like "Are you a spy for another country" or "do you intend to commit a crime when you come to the US"? It is easy to __prove__ you lied on a visa application which gives reason to hold someone. Proving spying is much harder, but now they have a reason to hold Weng and interrogate him further. Also, think Capone and tax evasion. The law isn't really about people that made a mistake on a visa, the law is about people having ill intentions towards the US.
- unishark 6y ago
  Well on his visa application he didn't disclose that his real that his purpose was to collect IP as a member of the Chinese military, in fact he explicitly stated this wasn't the case. So by showing he is a spy they show he committed fraud on the application.
db48x 6y ago
The "maximum sentence" thing is mostly there for intimidation. The news goes along with it because it's simple and easy, rather than because it's what really happens. The reality is that there's a complex algorithm that judges are required to use that determines the actual length of the sentence. Various factors are each worth a certain number of points, then the points are converted into time in prison.
xxpor 6y ago
That's just the statutory maximum. No one is getting that unless it's incredibly egregious and it's not their first conviction. For a realistic sentence, you'd have to go through the US Sentencing Guidelines and calculate it. News reports never do because you basically have to be a lawyer to do it accurately, it's very complex and not objective. As a SWAG, I'd think we're talking about less than a year here, given he has no criminal history. Otoh, there might be enhancements due to him being here as an agent of a foreign government.
- wbl 6y ago
  It's about as complicated as a grapple in Pathfinder.
tzs 6y ago
When you see a maximum sentence and fine mentioned in a Department of Justice press release it is simply the maximum that it is possible for a hypothetical defendant whose case hits every one of the factors that can increase a sentence. There is no attempt in the press release to actually consider the relevant sentencing factors that would apply in the actual case and calculate what a real sentence might be. See "Crime: Whale Sushi. Sentence: ELEVENTY MILLION YEARS" [1] for more detail on press release sentences. [1] https://www.popehat.com/2013/02/05/crime-whale-sushi-sentence-eleventy-million-years/ https://www.popehat.com/2013/02/05/crime-whale-sushi-sentenc...

marcinzm 6y ago

>make him explain what really happened According to the court documents, what really happened was that he was trying to steal intellectual property for China. These long sentences exist because state actors would otherwise just keep sending people until one succeeded with no downside.

ransom1538 6y ago
? Not following. They just caught a guy doing it with harsh sentences. China already has no downsides. Having this person work with us OUT of prison would hurt China much more.
- gpm 6y ago
  Having spies go to prison for long periods of time tend to decrease the incentives of other people to become spies. Unlike most criminals, spies are probably moderately rational about risk/reward, as such this is probably actually an effective deterrent. /end unsupported opinion.
  - strbean 6y ago
    What are the odds anyone in their applicant pool hears about this?
  - godelski 6y ago
    I may be totally off base, but I've heard that spies are generally treated well. That they are mostly traded. That way when our spies are caught they aren't mistreated either. Clearly situations matter and the sensitivity of what was stolen.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
boomboomsubban 6y ago
>what really happened was that he was trying to steal intellectual property for China. If these court documents can show that, why isn't he being charged for it?

hntxfelon 6y ago

> Good luck getting out alive as a 5'5" 130 lbs guy in a federal prison covered in covid19 for 10 years State prison is worse. covid19 wasn't an issue, but I went into a Texas prison smaller than that (5'9", 123lbs) and served six years, day for day.

hourislate 6y ago

>The US has ludicrous prison sentences. Lie on an application = 10 years in prison. How would the Chinese respond if it was an American stealing research funded by the PLA and was sent by the USA to study the Lab so he could bring back the know how to replicate it. I wonder why the Chinese don't take the same approach you advocate for the USA. Here are some current examples of how the Chinese Gov deals with supposed spies and whatever... From what I understand they have tortured a British National recently. https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/china-tortured-detained-british-diplomat-says-uk-government-20200611-p551u0.html https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/china-tortured-detained-... Here is the case of two Canadians still in prison on some kind of drummed up charges... https://globalnews.ca/news/6270013/canadians-detained-china-1-year/ https://globalnews.ca/news/6270013/canadians-detained-china-...

sebastialonso 6y ago

I don't follow. The charge doesn't seem to be for the visa charge, it's evidently because of the state-sponsored theft of IP. I too would argue for longer, harsher sentences for foreign spies. Force rival nations to stop or to get better at it.

detaro 6y ago
So they mention a specific law being violated, and the punishment under that law, but "The charge doesn't seem to be for the visa charge"?
- godelski 6y ago
  Those questions are so they can stop someone and continue investigating. Why do you think there's questions on the visa like "Are you a spy for another country" or "do you intend to commit a crime when you come to the US"? It is easy to __prove__ you lied on a visa application which gives reason to hold someone. Proving spying is much harder, but now they have a reason to hold Weng and interrogate him further. Also, think Capone and tax evasion. The law isn't really about people that made a mistake on a visa, the law is about people having ill intentions towards the US.
unishark 6y ago
Well on his visa application he didn't disclose that his real that his purpose was to collect IP as a member of the Chinese military, in fact he explicitly stated this wasn't the case. So by showing he is a spy they show he committed fraud on the application.

db48x 6y ago

The "maximum sentence" thing is mostly there for intimidation. The news goes along with it because it's simple and easy, rather than because it's what really happens. The reality is that there's a complex algorithm that judges are required to use that determines the actual length of the sentence. Various factors are each worth a certain number of points, then the points are converted into time in prison.

xxpor 6y ago

That's just the statutory maximum. No one is getting that unless it's incredibly egregious and it's not their first conviction. For a realistic sentence, you'd have to go through the US Sentencing Guidelines and calculate it. News reports never do because you basically have to be a lawyer to do it accurately, it's very complex and not objective. As a SWAG, I'd think we're talking about less than a year here, given he has no criminal history. Otoh, there might be enhancements due to him being here as an agent of a foreign government.

wbl 6y ago
It's about as complicated as a grapple in Pathfinder.

tzs 6y ago

When you see a maximum sentence and fine mentioned in a Department of Justice press release it is simply the maximum that it is possible for a hypothetical defendant whose case hits every one of the factors that can increase a sentence. There is no attempt in the press release to actually consider the relevant sentencing factors that would apply in the actual case and calculate what a real sentence might be. See "Crime: Whale Sushi. Sentence: ELEVENTY MILLION YEARS" [1] for more detail on press release sentences. [1] https://www.popehat.com/2013/02/05/crime-whale-sushi-sentence-eleventy-million-years/ https://www.popehat.com/2013/02/05/crime-whale-sushi-sentenc...