12 ms·

Maybe. On the other hand, if they think that they'll catch up by replicating things in the united states down to the layout of research labs... then that's kin

Maybe. On the other hand, if they think that they'll catch up by replicating things in the united states down to the layout of research labs... then that's kind of hilarious and they've really missed the point. It's like the Soviets copying the space shuttle and concorde. They're copying the wrong things, too late.

DevKoala 6y ago
> Wang similarly told his supervising UCSF professor that he had duplicated some of the work of that professor at the lab in China. Some of the work of the UCSF lab was funded by grants from the United States Department of Health and Human Services, National Institutes of Health (NIH). Wang also wiped his personal phone of WeChat messaging content earlier the morning he arrived at LAX. They are being thorough.
- bfieidhbrjr 6y ago
  Everyone has OpSec. And then he told them everything during an interview. Or maybe it's all lies to hide something else. Who knows.
  - a012 6y ago
    He's a "Level 9" PLA officer (apx. Major officer), if he spilled that out easily to CBP, definitely there's something more suspicious than just copy-cat labs design.
    - baybal2 6y ago
      Level 9 technician is just a civilian employee, not an officer, let alone major.
    - rdtsc 6y ago
      The official name for that is I believe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_hangout https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_hangout But something doesn't add up to him just confessing that quickly all that information
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
- __s 6y ago
  Finally some effort to address the replication crisis
- boomboomsubban 6y ago
  It doesn't say when the professors work was duplicated, it may have been a published experiment he duplicated at his university job. I imagine most US university medical labs have grant funding from those organizations, they don't even suggest Wang was involved with that research. And wiping your phone before international travel, particular to China, is just smart. That doesn't imply wrongdoing.
m4rtink 6y ago
Well, with TU 144 and Buran, the copying situation is rather interesting - both were substantially different that the Concorde and Space Shuttle. But the main copy aspect was that the politburo saw a cool thing and told the engineeres - we want THAT - NOW, get going on it or else.
- mhh__ 6y ago
  > politburo saw a cool thing and told the engineeres There was industrial espionage too. Considering they had the former and political backing, it's surprising how much of a disaster the 144 was - Not least because it was built for a market that didn't exist (comrade) in the Soviet Union, it was a noisy deathtrap. Their western equivalents flew somewhere on the order of a thousand times further (Concordski only did about 100 commercial flights)
- barry-cotter 6y ago
  > Well, with TU 144 and Buran, the copying situation is rather interesting - both were substantially different that the Concorde and Space Shuttle. This is super common with industrial espionage. As a reductio ad absurdum after 1991 I believe the Russians sold working fighter jets with detailed blue prints and instructions on how to manufacture all the components to the Converse Chinese. They still failed to make a perfect copy. Same deal for whatever the Soviet copy of the B-52 was. Building a sophisticated piece of machinery when your supply chain is very different you have to make compromises and different choices and they all add up.
- inamberclad 6y ago
  Not only that, but the Soviets realized that the STS (Space Transportation System) wasn't going to live up to its promises for flight rate and cost, and thought something else must be afoot.
  - m4rtink 6y ago
    IIRC the main thing Soviets feared was surprise strike on Moscow by nukes launched from a space shuttle. This sounds rather absurd given that preparing a space shuttle for launch takes literally months. But the idea was, as far as I can tell, that it would launch on a regular mission, then use its heat shield and aerodynamic surfaces to change orbit inclination radically while out of reach of soviet radar, resulting in totally unexpected direct overflight of Moscow, making a decapitating strike possible.
bamboozled 6y ago
They made a space shuttle though, and it was pretty capable. It could even fly autonomously.
- perl4ever 6y ago
  That's misleading, and anyone who cares presumably knows.
igivanov 6y ago
>It's like the Soviets copying the space shuttle and concorde. they didn't though, please try again.
- perl4ever 6y ago
  The resemblance is obvious, whether or not it's a "copy" by some standard. It just occurred to me to check out the Mig-29 on Wikipedia, and it has an uncanny resemblance to the F-15.
  - sm_4096 6y ago
    It might be an optimum design for a glider, e.g., here is a design for India's Space Shuttle https://dynaimage.cdn.cnn.com/cnn/c_fill,g_auto,w_1200,h_675,ar_16:9/https%3A%2F%2Fcdn.cnn.com%2Fcnnnext%2Fdam%2Fassets%2F160523134043-india-space-shuttle-test-1.jpg https://dynaimage.cdn.cnn.com/cnn/c_fill,g_auto,w_1200,h_675...
  - igivanov 6y ago
    you know, in the age of google it's quite easy check that your assumptions are completely wrong https://www.popularmechanics.com/space/rockets/a9763/did-the-soviets-actually-build-a-better-space-shuttle-16176311/ https://www.popularmechanics.com/space/rockets/a9763/did-the... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-144#Development https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-144#Development >uncanny resemblance duh...
    - perl4ever 6y ago
      Maybe you misread something? If I think something obviously looks like something else, that's not something you can disprove with a citation. There's no assumption involved.
  - deepnotderp 6y ago
    Both the Mig-29 and Su-27 are based on the same aerodynamics research. That they look similar to the F-15 is probably more due to the fact that they were all designed to be air superiority fighters than any espionage.
drocer88 6y ago
Soviets also copied the B-29 : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-4 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-4 "... the type entered large-scale service in 1949. Entry into service of the Tu-4 threw the USAF into a panic, since the Tu-4 possessed sufficient range to attack Chicago or Los Angeles on a one-way mission ... and early Intel microchips: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KR580VM80A https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KR580VM80A , which included military versions.
sudosysgen 6y ago
Their "space shuttle" was not a copy and was also far superior to the Western one in design.
- Retric 6y ago
  It was different which means their was some arguable advantages, but it was less reusable and even more expensive to operate. They effectively copped the worst aspects of the shuttle and then made a lot of sacrifices to get it to fly. Which is why it only had a single unmanned flight.
  - discordance 6y ago
    Pretty sure the Buran only had one flight because of timing with the fall of the USSR. Here’s a good summary of its life: https://youtu.be/XLOCQw5s9Uw https://youtu.be/XLOCQw5s9Uw
    - perl4ever 6y ago
      Well, if it wasn't a response to the shuttle, the timing would have been different, earlier, wouldn't it?
    - Retric 6y ago
      It’s possible the USSR would have had more flights for propaganda reasons, but in a direct comparison the Souyuz was simply the better design. So it was the Soyuz program that continued after the USSR’s fall.
      - sudosysgen 6y ago
        If the US had the space shuttle, the Soyuz, and common sense, they would also drop the space shuttle and fly the Soyuz. But apparently the US had neither the Soyuz nor common sense. The Buran only existed in order to send a message. And it was also technically better designed than the space shuttle.
dkdk8283 6y ago
It could be they’re duplicating the physical layout of the lab to make stolen documents easier to understand.
baybal2 6y ago
> then that's kind of hilarious and they've really missed the point. Not quite, a layout, and process organisation of some high end labs are quite important, especially if you deal with some hazardous materials, and want to design protocols to avoid contamination/theft. If he is a bacteriologist, then, moreover given what's in the news these days
qppo 6y ago
If you've ever heard a counterfeiting story from a chipmaker this is unsurprising. They'll copy anything and everything just to be sure.
- sslayer 6y ago
  Forgotten weapons has a great video on early 20th century counterfeit Chinese weapons that is relatable - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HNaB7l2GQk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HNaB7l2GQk
  - solotronics 6y ago
    I saw a Chinese copy of a Nazi pistol (mauser broomhandle) and at distance it is a 1-1 copy but on closer inspection you realize instead of being machined every single part was filed by hand by someone. It must have taken an incredible amount of time to make a pistol that way. Also they tried to copy the stamped lettering but most of it is jibberish. Very interesting.
    - sudosysgen 6y ago
      People in the Philippines also still make pistols by hand filing. It's quite incredible.
rmrfstar 6y ago
This is bad read on the history of innovation. I offer two counter-examples, though there are many more: (1) Japanese semiconductor industry, for which there is an excellent NHK documentary [1]. (2) After WW2, the British invited Soviet engineers to tour jet engine factories as a token of good faith. The engineers documented the factory layout, and wore adhesive on their shoes to gather metal filings for later analysis. A few years later, Mig-15's were shooting American planes out of the sky over Korea. A similar example: the British transferred huge bodies of knowledge to US aircraft engine manufacturers during WW2. This laid the foundation for the industry's future success. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihkRwArnc1k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihkRwArnc1k
- lightgreen 6y ago
  (2) According to Mig-15 wp page, UK gave USSR an engine with blueprints. The part in your story about adhesive shoes sounds like an urban legend, unimportant detail at most.
  - redis_mlc 6y ago
    No, I've heard about that in a few different aircraft programs, so it's likely real.
  - techer 6y ago
    Not the origin of gumshoe
  - s1artibartfast 6y ago
    Aerospace metallurgy is some of the most secretive aspects of development. Metal filings could literally have been more valuable than the blueprints. This is still a very competitive space a challenge for reverse engineering. Even with samples and atomic analyses, it is not always possible possible to reproduce without the proper method. Here is a related link. https://www.inkstonenews.com/tech/chinese-spy-accused-trying-steal-us-trade-secrets/article/2168111 https://www.inkstonenews.com/tech/chinese-spy-accused-trying...
deepnotderp 6y ago
Buran is a bad example, as it was very different from the space shuttle and likely superior

DevKoala 6y ago

> Wang similarly told his supervising UCSF professor that he had duplicated some of the work of that professor at the lab in China. Some of the work of the UCSF lab was funded by grants from the United States Department of Health and Human Services, National Institutes of Health (NIH). Wang also wiped his personal phone of WeChat messaging content earlier the morning he arrived at LAX. They are being thorough.

bfieidhbrjr 6y ago
Everyone has OpSec. And then he told them everything during an interview. Or maybe it's all lies to hide something else. Who knows.
- a012 6y ago
  He's a "Level 9" PLA officer (apx. Major officer), if he spilled that out easily to CBP, definitely there's something more suspicious than just copy-cat labs design.
  - baybal2 6y ago
    Level 9 technician is just a civilian employee, not an officer, let alone major.
  - rdtsc 6y ago
    The official name for that is I believe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_hangout https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_hangout But something doesn't add up to him just confessing that quickly all that information
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
__s 6y ago
Finally some effort to address the replication crisis
boomboomsubban 6y ago
It doesn't say when the professors work was duplicated, it may have been a published experiment he duplicated at his university job. I imagine most US university medical labs have grant funding from those organizations, they don't even suggest Wang was involved with that research. And wiping your phone before international travel, particular to China, is just smart. That doesn't imply wrongdoing.

m4rtink 6y ago

Well, with TU 144 and Buran, the copying situation is rather interesting - both were substantially different that the Concorde and Space Shuttle. But the main copy aspect was that the politburo saw a cool thing and told the engineeres - we want THAT - NOW, get going on it or else.

mhh__ 6y ago
> politburo saw a cool thing and told the engineeres There was industrial espionage too. Considering they had the former and political backing, it's surprising how much of a disaster the 144 was - Not least because it was built for a market that didn't exist (comrade) in the Soviet Union, it was a noisy deathtrap. Their western equivalents flew somewhere on the order of a thousand times further (Concordski only did about 100 commercial flights)
barry-cotter 6y ago
> Well, with TU 144 and Buran, the copying situation is rather interesting - both were substantially different that the Concorde and Space Shuttle. This is super common with industrial espionage. As a reductio ad absurdum after 1991 I believe the Russians sold working fighter jets with detailed blue prints and instructions on how to manufacture all the components to the Converse Chinese. They still failed to make a perfect copy. Same deal for whatever the Soviet copy of the B-52 was. Building a sophisticated piece of machinery when your supply chain is very different you have to make compromises and different choices and they all add up.
inamberclad 6y ago
Not only that, but the Soviets realized that the STS (Space Transportation System) wasn't going to live up to its promises for flight rate and cost, and thought something else must be afoot.
- m4rtink 6y ago
  IIRC the main thing Soviets feared was surprise strike on Moscow by nukes launched from a space shuttle. This sounds rather absurd given that preparing a space shuttle for launch takes literally months. But the idea was, as far as I can tell, that it would launch on a regular mission, then use its heat shield and aerodynamic surfaces to change orbit inclination radically while out of reach of soviet radar, resulting in totally unexpected direct overflight of Moscow, making a decapitating strike possible.

bamboozled 6y ago

They made a space shuttle though, and it was pretty capable. It could even fly autonomously.

perl4ever 6y ago
That's misleading, and anyone who cares presumably knows.

igivanov 6y ago

>It's like the Soviets copying the space shuttle and concorde. they didn't though, please try again.

perl4ever 6y ago
The resemblance is obvious, whether or not it's a "copy" by some standard. It just occurred to me to check out the Mig-29 on Wikipedia, and it has an uncanny resemblance to the F-15.
- sm_4096 6y ago
  It might be an optimum design for a glider, e.g., here is a design for India's Space Shuttle https://dynaimage.cdn.cnn.com/cnn/c_fill,g_auto,w_1200,h_675,ar_16:9/https%3A%2F%2Fcdn.cnn.com%2Fcnnnext%2Fdam%2Fassets%2F160523134043-india-space-shuttle-test-1.jpg https://dynaimage.cdn.cnn.com/cnn/c_fill,g_auto,w_1200,h_675...
- igivanov 6y ago
  you know, in the age of google it's quite easy check that your assumptions are completely wrong https://www.popularmechanics.com/space/rockets/a9763/did-the-soviets-actually-build-a-better-space-shuttle-16176311/ https://www.popularmechanics.com/space/rockets/a9763/did-the... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-144#Development https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-144#Development >uncanny resemblance duh...
  - perl4ever 6y ago
    Maybe you misread something? If I think something obviously looks like something else, that's not something you can disprove with a citation. There's no assumption involved.
- deepnotderp 6y ago
  Both the Mig-29 and Su-27 are based on the same aerodynamics research. That they look similar to the F-15 is probably more due to the fact that they were all designed to be air superiority fighters than any espionage.

drocer88 6y ago

Soviets also copied the B-29 : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-4 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-4 "... the type entered large-scale service in 1949. Entry into service of the Tu-4 threw the USAF into a panic, since the Tu-4 possessed sufficient range to attack Chicago or Los Angeles on a one-way mission ... and early Intel microchips: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KR580VM80A https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KR580VM80A , which included military versions.

sudosysgen 6y ago

Their "space shuttle" was not a copy and was also far superior to the Western one in design.

Retric 6y ago
It was different which means their was some arguable advantages, but it was less reusable and even more expensive to operate. They effectively copped the worst aspects of the shuttle and then made a lot of sacrifices to get it to fly. Which is why it only had a single unmanned flight.
- discordance 6y ago
  Pretty sure the Buran only had one flight because of timing with the fall of the USSR. Here’s a good summary of its life: https://youtu.be/XLOCQw5s9Uw https://youtu.be/XLOCQw5s9Uw
  - perl4ever 6y ago
    Well, if it wasn't a response to the shuttle, the timing would have been different, earlier, wouldn't it?
  - Retric 6y ago
    It’s possible the USSR would have had more flights for propaganda reasons, but in a direct comparison the Souyuz was simply the better design. So it was the Soyuz program that continued after the USSR’s fall.
    - sudosysgen 6y ago
      If the US had the space shuttle, the Soyuz, and common sense, they would also drop the space shuttle and fly the Soyuz. But apparently the US had neither the Soyuz nor common sense. The Buran only existed in order to send a message. And it was also technically better designed than the space shuttle.

dkdk8283 6y ago

It could be they’re duplicating the physical layout of the lab to make stolen documents easier to understand.

baybal2 6y ago

> then that's kind of hilarious and they've really missed the point. Not quite, a layout, and process organisation of some high end labs are quite important, especially if you deal with some hazardous materials, and want to design protocols to avoid contamination/theft. If he is a bacteriologist, then, moreover given what's in the news these days

qppo 6y ago

If you've ever heard a counterfeiting story from a chipmaker this is unsurprising. They'll copy anything and everything just to be sure.

sslayer 6y ago
Forgotten weapons has a great video on early 20th century counterfeit Chinese weapons that is relatable - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HNaB7l2GQk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HNaB7l2GQk
- solotronics 6y ago
  I saw a Chinese copy of a Nazi pistol (mauser broomhandle) and at distance it is a 1-1 copy but on closer inspection you realize instead of being machined every single part was filed by hand by someone. It must have taken an incredible amount of time to make a pistol that way. Also they tried to copy the stamped lettering but most of it is jibberish. Very interesting.
  - sudosysgen 6y ago
    People in the Philippines also still make pistols by hand filing. It's quite incredible.

rmrfstar 6y ago

This is bad read on the history of innovation. I offer two counter-examples, though there are many more: (1) Japanese semiconductor industry, for which there is an excellent NHK documentary [1]. (2) After WW2, the British invited Soviet engineers to tour jet engine factories as a token of good faith. The engineers documented the factory layout, and wore adhesive on their shoes to gather metal filings for later analysis. A few years later, Mig-15's were shooting American planes out of the sky over Korea. A similar example: the British transferred huge bodies of knowledge to US aircraft engine manufacturers during WW2. This laid the foundation for the industry's future success. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihkRwArnc1k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihkRwArnc1k

lightgreen 6y ago
(2) According to Mig-15 wp page, UK gave USSR an engine with blueprints. The part in your story about adhesive shoes sounds like an urban legend, unimportant detail at most.
- redis_mlc 6y ago
  No, I've heard about that in a few different aircraft programs, so it's likely real.
- techer 6y ago
  Not the origin of gumshoe
- s1artibartfast 6y ago
  Aerospace metallurgy is some of the most secretive aspects of development. Metal filings could literally have been more valuable than the blueprints. This is still a very competitive space a challenge for reverse engineering. Even with samples and atomic analyses, it is not always possible possible to reproduce without the proper method. Here is a related link. https://www.inkstonenews.com/tech/chinese-spy-accused-trying-steal-us-trade-secrets/article/2168111 https://www.inkstonenews.com/tech/chinese-spy-accused-trying...

deepnotderp 6y ago

Buran is a bad example, as it was very different from the space shuttle and likely superior