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The only way we effect change is by ORGANIZING. Right now, Apple can do whatever they want because they pick us off one by one, and ignore us. Google does exac

The only way we effect change is by ORGANIZING. Right now, Apple can do whatever they want because they pick us off one by one, and ignore us. Google does exactly the same thing. If we organize as a large enough group, they have to listen. I firmly believe what Apple does is anti-competitive and they need to be regulated firmly by the government. I also think Google and Facebook need to be firmly regulated by the government as well. Apple needs to allow other people to create their own App Store or they should be regulated by the government. We need to organize as a group of software developers and sue Apple and lobby our politicians, because that seems to be the only way Apple will listen. I also agree that subscriptions are NOT the way to go, and having paid upgrades are the best way to go. Driving down the costs such that things are freemium has ruined our industry as far as I'm concerned. I want to pay good money for a good piece of software, but even $0.99 is "expensive" for most people these days. This needs to stop otherwise iOS app development will become the sweatshop of the 2020s.

slimsag 6y ago
> even $0.99 is "expensive" for most people these days In my experience, this is not really true - most people (including myself) just cannot find these apps and instead see only subscription ones which seems to be the new trend. The last 7 apps I downloaded on iOS wanted a $5-10/mo monthly subscription, and I literally _cannot_ purchase the app. And I'm talking about really basic zero-infrastructure apps: - 2 transcriber apps that use iOS's native speech recognition functionality only (no server). - A Snapchat equivalent that puts beards and other funny things on a picture of your face. - A photo collage maker. - A photo effects editor. - An app that turns live pictures into gifs (really?)
- musicale 6y ago
  > most people (including myself) just cannot find these apps and instead see only subscription ones which seems to be the new trend. Yes!! The App Store search function is useless. I want affordable paid apps without ads, subscriptions, or IAPs.
  - andrekandre 6y ago
    i cant tell you how many times i could not reactivate an in-app-purchase when getting a new mac; might as well just paid upfront... i think apple really messed up iap by having the dev-side do all the transactions/authentication...
  - inapis 6y ago
    This really kills discovery. Seeing an upfront price without the ability to trial the app really dissuades the user. On top of it, refunds are tedious to obtain and you can do it only so many times.
- kalleboo 6y ago
  As a developer, Apple is heavily, heavily pushing us to adopt subscriptions, even for apps where it makes no sense. We get contacted by developer relations folks several times a year, they even dragged us to a seminar to espouse the joys of subscriptions. We do a camera app. All we want is clearly-marked trial versions (not "free apps with in-app purchases", users think that's bait-and-switch and give you 1 star reviews), and upgrade pricing. Apple refuses to adopt those.
  - valuearb 6y ago
    Subscriptions always make sense because it aligns developers costs with customer usage. Small developers were dying trying to support apps forever on one time purchases. Subscriptions enable developers to be compensated for maintaining and upgrading their apps. Trial versions are a bad user experience. Upgrade pricing would be nice, but fir most apps isn’t really necessary since subscriptions solve the same problem in a better manner.
    - spencerflem 6y ago
      I would be much happier paying to upgrade on my own terms than being held hostage every month with subscription fees. Subscriptions add up fast and for most things if the app is good enough now I don't care too much about continuing support.
      - TeMPOraL 6y ago
        And even if subscriptions are small, the hassle of tracking them adds up fast too, because each subscription is an unnecessary relationship with a third party, a relationship I don't want to have. When I buy bread, I don't enter into a relationship with the baker or the supermarket. I want the same to be true of software.
        ocean12 6y ago
        I refuse to use them, even when it pushes me back to the default apps that came with the device.
lytedev 6y ago
Is it wrong of me to think "vote with your wallet" and don't buy an iPhone?
- musicale 6y ago
  More like don't develop for iPhone or Android. OP seems to be suggesting that developers organize against the de facto app store duopoly. > Google does exactly the same thing
  - valuearb 6y ago
    Apple is paying developers nearly $30B a year, that dwarfs all these minor complaints fir most developers.
    - wilshipley 6y ago
      That $30B number is meaningless on its own. You don’t know how many people it’s going to or how it’s divided amongst them. Also, they’re not paying us at all. They’re taking 30% of our gross for the privilege of having an entry on their store, and then they run ads against us.
    - syshum 6y ago
      WOW, that is a gross reversal of the sales model. I thought Apple had a warped sense of their role but here you believe that Apple is entitled to 100% of the sales from the developers apps, and are graciously paying the devs 70% of money Apple is entitled to, instead of the reality that Apple is taking 30% of the revenue from Developers for the "privilege" of access to consumers that already paid apple thousands of dollars. Apple is a Payment processor, that is the service they provide. a "Fair" amount for a payment process is maybe 5%, not 30%
      - valuearb 6y ago
        Apples App Store service does far more than payment processing, and it’s disingenuous to compare them to one. They host and distribute petabytes of data. They have a large team hosting and maintain marketing sites for developers in dozens of languages all over the world. Another team develops and distributes mobile apps for store access in all those languages. They have a large team providing developer support and developer tools. They have a thousand employees screening app submissions for malware to help ensure customers feel safe buying your apps from the App Store. They have hundreds of employees marketing the store and promoting developers. They do all these things for free if you distribute free apps. So he developers have distributed hundreds of terabytes of free apps without paying a dime. Clearly Apple makes a profit from the App Store, but also clearly it wouldn’t be able to remotely cover these costs at 5%, their break even is closer to 15%. Developers long for the day some government or court will force Apple to reduce their profit share, but as a iOS developer I warn those devs to be careful for what they wish for. Apple taking 20% or less is a recipe for developers getting nickel and dimed by Apple. They will start charging hosting and bandwidth fees, submission fees, support subscriptions, etc, etc, and Apples profitability will be back where it was. Free app devs and small developers however will take a huge step backwards.
scarface74 6y ago
Thought experiment: Let’s day that Apple banned an app by both Black Lives Matter and “Focus on the Family” and they both complained about it to the government. Which one do you think the government would be more likely to force Apple to carry? It continues to amaze me that anyone wants the sane government more involved in technology whose leader wants to “shut down Twitter” and wants all of the data it can get to spy on citizens.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- icebraining 6y ago
  In English, the government doesn't necessarily mean the executive. If Congress passed a law stating how platforms must treat the developers, them one could sue Apple to enforce it.
  - scarface74 6y ago
    Congress only comes up with broad guidelines. The actual implementation of laws are done via departments like the FTC, FDA, FCC etc. (of course I am just giving examples). Those committees are run by unelected officials. If someone wanted to get those laws enforced they would go before unelected judges with lifetime appointments - again chosen by the executive branch. The Justice Department is also suppose to be independent, but again is heavily swayed by the executive branch.
fouc 6y ago
I agree about ORGANIZING. If end users formed a large powerful organization then we can effect change more easily. I think end users should have some rights with how they use computers, how they use software, how the social contract of the web is maintained, etc.
soulchild37 6y ago
Ayyy the main reason I named my App Store company Sweatshop : https://apps.apple.com/us/developer/sweatshop/id974916840 https://apps.apple.com/us/developer/sweatshop/id974916840

slimsag 6y ago

> even $0.99 is "expensive" for most people these days In my experience, this is not really true - most people (including myself) just cannot find these apps and instead see only subscription ones which seems to be the new trend. The last 7 apps I downloaded on iOS wanted a $5-10/mo monthly subscription, and I literally _cannot_ purchase the app. And I'm talking about really basic zero-infrastructure apps: - 2 transcriber apps that use iOS's native speech recognition functionality only (no server). - A Snapchat equivalent that puts beards and other funny things on a picture of your face. - A photo collage maker. - A photo effects editor. - An app that turns live pictures into gifs (really?)

musicale 6y ago
> most people (including myself) just cannot find these apps and instead see only subscription ones which seems to be the new trend. Yes!! The App Store search function is useless. I want affordable paid apps without ads, subscriptions, or IAPs.
- andrekandre 6y ago
  i cant tell you how many times i could not reactivate an in-app-purchase when getting a new mac; might as well just paid upfront... i think apple really messed up iap by having the dev-side do all the transactions/authentication...
- inapis 6y ago
  This really kills discovery. Seeing an upfront price without the ability to trial the app really dissuades the user. On top of it, refunds are tedious to obtain and you can do it only so many times.
kalleboo 6y ago
As a developer, Apple is heavily, heavily pushing us to adopt subscriptions, even for apps where it makes no sense. We get contacted by developer relations folks several times a year, they even dragged us to a seminar to espouse the joys of subscriptions. We do a camera app. All we want is clearly-marked trial versions (not "free apps with in-app purchases", users think that's bait-and-switch and give you 1 star reviews), and upgrade pricing. Apple refuses to adopt those.
- valuearb 6y ago
  Subscriptions always make sense because it aligns developers costs with customer usage. Small developers were dying trying to support apps forever on one time purchases. Subscriptions enable developers to be compensated for maintaining and upgrading their apps. Trial versions are a bad user experience. Upgrade pricing would be nice, but fir most apps isn’t really necessary since subscriptions solve the same problem in a better manner.
  - spencerflem 6y ago
    I would be much happier paying to upgrade on my own terms than being held hostage every month with subscription fees. Subscriptions add up fast and for most things if the app is good enough now I don't care too much about continuing support.
    - TeMPOraL 6y ago
      And even if subscriptions are small, the hassle of tracking them adds up fast too, because each subscription is an unnecessary relationship with a third party, a relationship I don't want to have. When I buy bread, I don't enter into a relationship with the baker or the supermarket. I want the same to be true of software.
      - ocean12 6y ago
        I refuse to use them, even when it pushes me back to the default apps that came with the device.

lytedev 6y ago

Is it wrong of me to think "vote with your wallet" and don't buy an iPhone?

musicale 6y ago
More like don't develop for iPhone or Android. OP seems to be suggesting that developers organize against the de facto app store duopoly. > Google does exactly the same thing
- valuearb 6y ago
  Apple is paying developers nearly $30B a year, that dwarfs all these minor complaints fir most developers.
  - wilshipley 6y ago
    That $30B number is meaningless on its own. You don’t know how many people it’s going to or how it’s divided amongst them. Also, they’re not paying us at all. They’re taking 30% of our gross for the privilege of having an entry on their store, and then they run ads against us.
  - syshum 6y ago
    WOW, that is a gross reversal of the sales model. I thought Apple had a warped sense of their role but here you believe that Apple is entitled to 100% of the sales from the developers apps, and are graciously paying the devs 70% of money Apple is entitled to, instead of the reality that Apple is taking 30% of the revenue from Developers for the "privilege" of access to consumers that already paid apple thousands of dollars. Apple is a Payment processor, that is the service they provide. a "Fair" amount for a payment process is maybe 5%, not 30%
    - valuearb 6y ago
      Apples App Store service does far more than payment processing, and it’s disingenuous to compare them to one. They host and distribute petabytes of data. They have a large team hosting and maintain marketing sites for developers in dozens of languages all over the world. Another team develops and distributes mobile apps for store access in all those languages. They have a large team providing developer support and developer tools. They have a thousand employees screening app submissions for malware to help ensure customers feel safe buying your apps from the App Store. They have hundreds of employees marketing the store and promoting developers. They do all these things for free if you distribute free apps. So he developers have distributed hundreds of terabytes of free apps without paying a dime. Clearly Apple makes a profit from the App Store, but also clearly it wouldn’t be able to remotely cover these costs at 5%, their break even is closer to 15%. Developers long for the day some government or court will force Apple to reduce their profit share, but as a iOS developer I warn those devs to be careful for what they wish for. Apple taking 20% or less is a recipe for developers getting nickel and dimed by Apple. They will start charging hosting and bandwidth fees, submission fees, support subscriptions, etc, etc, and Apples profitability will be back where it was. Free app devs and small developers however will take a huge step backwards.

scarface74 6y ago

Thought experiment: Let’s day that Apple banned an app by both Black Lives Matter and “Focus on the Family” and they both complained about it to the government. Which one do you think the government would be more likely to force Apple to carry? It continues to amaze me that anyone wants the sane government more involved in technology whose leader wants to “shut down Twitter” and wants all of the data it can get to spy on citizens.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
icebraining 6y ago
In English, the government doesn't necessarily mean the executive. If Congress passed a law stating how platforms must treat the developers, them one could sue Apple to enforce it.
- scarface74 6y ago
  Congress only comes up with broad guidelines. The actual implementation of laws are done via departments like the FTC, FDA, FCC etc. (of course I am just giving examples). Those committees are run by unelected officials. If someone wanted to get those laws enforced they would go before unelected judges with lifetime appointments - again chosen by the executive branch. The Justice Department is also suppose to be independent, but again is heavily swayed by the executive branch.

fouc 6y ago

I agree about ORGANIZING. If end users formed a large powerful organization then we can effect change more easily. I think end users should have some rights with how they use computers, how they use software, how the social contract of the web is maintained, etc.

soulchild37 6y ago

Ayyy the main reason I named my App Store company Sweatshop : https://apps.apple.com/us/developer/sweatshop/id974916840 https://apps.apple.com/us/developer/sweatshop/id974916840