4 ms·

It’s only my anecdotal experience but part of the reason for me is that a lot of men are not even trying (edit: anymore) and simply more or less consciously gav

It’s only my anecdotal experience but part of the reason for me is that a lot of men are not even trying (edit: anymore) and simply more or less consciously gave up. In my days even as a nerd I tried to fit in, go to parties, bars, tried to hang with popular guys, or just do interesting thing (my hack was playing in a band, but doing art or skateboard, was ok too, you see the point). Nowadays I feel like you either have young boys hanging without girls, thinking that behaving like in a music video with shiny cars is what is attractive, or men simply staying in front of their computer not doing any social activity. Sure the picture is important on Tinder, but in my experience the most important thing is having an “interesting“ life and being social (or at least socially validated). It‘s as if a lot of men have simply chosen to forget what is attractive and think being good looking is everything.

geodel 6y ago
I think it is quite reasonable approach that these men are taking. I'd think of myself in that category. With society going in direction where social norms are evolving faster than many have mental bandwidth to deal with, it would be wise to just save time, money and energy to acquire that fake attractiveness. May be men have also taken cue from pop song 'You are beautiful just the way you are...'
- asdff 6y ago
  What social norms are really changing that are so very overwhelming? The only really changing social norm is wider acceptance of different lifestyles and people, and if it takes some people serious bandwidth to process the golden rule, maybe these people really should be sitting out on the outset of society for better or worse. It seems harsh, but I see a lot of people externalize all their personal issues on perceived societal changes outside of their control, when really the the only change happening to society is the expectation that you treat everyone with equal respect.
  - geodel 6y ago
    > maybe these people really should be sitting out on the outset of society for better or worse. Well they are already kind of sitting out. > the expectation that you treat everyone with equal respect. Thats an old humbug. IMO it merely means respect for people or group who are ideological flavor of the season.
  - downerending 6y ago
    Take it from an oldster: norms are wildly different than they were in the 70s or 80s. Both sexes back then were highly motivated to pair off quickly. The modern world is like being on a different planet.
  - antepodius 6y ago
    Equal respect? Social norms are a lot more complicated than that, man. You have to repeat all the right shibboleths, (subtly) honour the ingroup, and show appropriate hatred towards the outgroup. E.g. if you're among roughly progressive upper-middle white people, your shibboleths are stuff like your comment, your ingroup that you're not allowed to overtly acknowledge exists but that you must still honour is progressive upper-middle class white people, and the outgroup you should show sufficient: A, hatred towards the rich B, disdain towards is lower-class white people. Showing appropriate opprobum vers the outtribe might not be strictly speaking necessary, just highly recommended. Wouldn't want to be mistaken for them.
- koonsolo 6y ago
  My wife works with both men and women to fix their problems with finding a good relationship, and what you describe is the most common way of thinking among those men. Most of them are too stubborn to deviate from "they just have to accept me the way I am". Seriously, getting a nice haircut, dressing nicely, grooming yourself and smelling good has nothing to do with your personality. In this sense, men have it way easier than women, because men can influence their chances significantly without much effort. And that doesn't mean "fake", it means presenting yourself. It's pretty simple basically, if you want a woman to pick you, you have to offer her something. And the same will be true for the women, who you will expect to offer you something.
  - geodel 6y ago
    I mean what you say sounds pretty reasonable. I wonder it also sound reasonable if I say "Well black men have it really easy, they have great skin tone and better physique than average. All they have to do is to not dress like punk or wear hoodies and have hair cut short so they don't have run in with police often"
    - cosmodisk 6y ago
      There is an element of truth in this- just remove the word 'black' from your comment,as it's not necessary: I see a lot of young adults(I was one of them some years ago), who dress and behave in public in a way that it almost guarantees unnecessary attention(not in a good way), including from police. Dress like a normal person,not like some low life drug dealer,who spent 10 years on heroin, drop the idiotic language -'oi bruv' and so on and suddenly life becomes better. Even the hardcore criminals were fast to realise that it's much better to wear a suit and a tie than a tracksuit and and a hoody.
    - koonsolo 6y ago
      I thought this was about dating? Anyway, colored men (mainly indian guys in my wife's practice) significantly increase their attractiveness by dressing nice and well groomed, so same rules apply. But what I get from your explanation is that it's all the womens fault of not looking past that. Well maybe it's time for you to face reality.

geodel 6y ago

I think it is quite reasonable approach that these men are taking. I'd think of myself in that category. With society going in direction where social norms are evolving faster than many have mental bandwidth to deal with, it would be wise to just save time, money and energy to acquire that fake attractiveness. May be men have also taken cue from pop song 'You are beautiful just the way you are...'

asdff 6y ago
What social norms are really changing that are so very overwhelming? The only really changing social norm is wider acceptance of different lifestyles and people, and if it takes some people serious bandwidth to process the golden rule, maybe these people really should be sitting out on the outset of society for better or worse. It seems harsh, but I see a lot of people externalize all their personal issues on perceived societal changes outside of their control, when really the the only change happening to society is the expectation that you treat everyone with equal respect.
- geodel 6y ago
  > maybe these people really should be sitting out on the outset of society for better or worse. Well they are already kind of sitting out. > the expectation that you treat everyone with equal respect. Thats an old humbug. IMO it merely means respect for people or group who are ideological flavor of the season.
- downerending 6y ago
  Take it from an oldster: norms are wildly different than they were in the 70s or 80s. Both sexes back then were highly motivated to pair off quickly. The modern world is like being on a different planet.
- antepodius 6y ago
  Equal respect? Social norms are a lot more complicated than that, man. You have to repeat all the right shibboleths, (subtly) honour the ingroup, and show appropriate hatred towards the outgroup. E.g. if you're among roughly progressive upper-middle white people, your shibboleths are stuff like your comment, your ingroup that you're not allowed to overtly acknowledge exists but that you must still honour is progressive upper-middle class white people, and the outgroup you should show sufficient: A, hatred towards the rich B, disdain towards is lower-class white people. Showing appropriate opprobum vers the outtribe might not be strictly speaking necessary, just highly recommended. Wouldn't want to be mistaken for them.
koonsolo 6y ago
My wife works with both men and women to fix their problems with finding a good relationship, and what you describe is the most common way of thinking among those men. Most of them are too stubborn to deviate from "they just have to accept me the way I am". Seriously, getting a nice haircut, dressing nicely, grooming yourself and smelling good has nothing to do with your personality. In this sense, men have it way easier than women, because men can influence their chances significantly without much effort. And that doesn't mean "fake", it means presenting yourself. It's pretty simple basically, if you want a woman to pick you, you have to offer her something. And the same will be true for the women, who you will expect to offer you something.
- geodel 6y ago
  I mean what you say sounds pretty reasonable. I wonder it also sound reasonable if I say "Well black men have it really easy, they have great skin tone and better physique than average. All they have to do is to not dress like punk or wear hoodies and have hair cut short so they don't have run in with police often"
  - cosmodisk 6y ago
    There is an element of truth in this- just remove the word 'black' from your comment,as it's not necessary: I see a lot of young adults(I was one of them some years ago), who dress and behave in public in a way that it almost guarantees unnecessary attention(not in a good way), including from police. Dress like a normal person,not like some low life drug dealer,who spent 10 years on heroin, drop the idiotic language -'oi bruv' and so on and suddenly life becomes better. Even the hardcore criminals were fast to realise that it's much better to wear a suit and a tie than a tracksuit and and a hoody.
  - koonsolo 6y ago
    I thought this was about dating? Anyway, colored men (mainly indian guys in my wife's practice) significantly increase their attractiveness by dressing nice and well groomed, so same rules apply. But what I get from your explanation is that it's all the womens fault of not looking past that. Well maybe it's time for you to face reality.