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There are two coaching perspectives that I think are useful for single men. We don't have many dating coaches in the coaching community I run, but I've been in

There are two coaching perspectives that I think are useful for single men. We don't have many dating coaches in the coaching community I run, but I've been in long conversations with coaches outside that community whose job it is to help men date. One perspective is that it's almost always faster to focus on being more interested rather than more interesting. That means focusing on status and alpha male activities is typically a loser in terms of strategy despite all the anecdotes you hear to the contrary. Whereas treating women like people, looking them in the eyes, listening, being curious, trying to find ways to relate--these can be very effective. There's a lot to unpack there, but maybe the easiest is just to give women credit that they know when they are being manipulated. But human connection can be rare and a huge number of male daters are not approaching dating in a way that allows for that connection. To do this authentically, you have to be crystal clear that there is a difference between "I'm laughing at her jokes because I hope that will make her sleep with me." and "I'm laughing at her jokes because she's funny." This be more interested approach has an unfortunate counter narrative about getting friend zoned, as if that is a bad thing. You talked to a woman and ended up with a friend, what's so awful about that? And on this, I like the perspective of one of our sales coaches. Her perspective is that sales is a lot more about sorting than it is about convincing. If you approach dating as an exercise in convincing then you are basically implying that you can point at a woman and then rely on some set of male seduction skills that will convince her to sleep with you. What if you gave up just that fantasy of being able to pick any person and make them like you. And instead treated dating as a sorting activity--who do you like that also likes you back? An exercise anyone could do to see some of the wisdom above is to ask their female friends to show you the worst profiles and come-ons that they've received on Tinder. I think that will help you see that a lot of what is preventing men from finding matches has little to do with status and a lot to do with being weird and self-centered.

quasarj 6y ago
I'm glad you brought up the friend-zone thing. I feel like I'm extremely good at all the things you listed before that, and I have a ton of female friends (which I love, don't get me wrong). I just have no idea to turn that into sex.
- tonystubblebine 6y ago
  Great. I guarantee you are 100x closer to figuring out your love life than anyone here talking about wealth, looks or status. I don't want to be a love coach. But how are you with making an ask? Do you ever use clear language like, "Would you like to go on a date?" or if you're on a date, "Would you like to hold hands?" "Can I kiss you?" She's on a date for a reason too. And if the answer is no, then congratulations on sorting a person from the unknown bucket into the no-romantic-interest bucket. If they say no, accept the answer respectfully and move on.
  - dingaling 6y ago
    > But how are you with making an ask? Sure, encourage him. But also coach him for the inevitable "I don't think of you like that" response. Extra points if she adds "you're too good a friend". Categorisation into the Friend Zone happens within minutes of first meeting. There's no way out of that box.
    - tonystubblebine 6y ago
      A lot of people in this thread are talking about impossible standards of wealth and looks and being in the top 20% of men or higher. But not enough people are talking about this standard. Can you ask a woman out without making her feel scared? I think your fear often comes across as dangerous. So, ok, fine. Asking women out is scary. I was young, I remember that. But if you never ask anyone out what are you really complaining about. And if all you ever did was ask one person out, get rejected, and then you've been sulking about it every since, that's not any better. Hard is not the same thing as impossible. Hundreds of millions of men have figured this out.
- shuntress 6y ago
  >I just have no idea to turn that into sex. This seems indicative of the exact line of thinking the parent comment notes does not typically work. >"I'm laughing at her jokes because I hope that will make her sleep with me."
- Debugreality 6y ago
troughway 6y ago
>Whereas treating women like people, looking them in the eyes, listening, being curious, trying to find ways to relate--these can be very effective. In other words, in sex and in business, being a good salesman is key.
- tonystubblebine 6y ago
  And it has the exact same misunderstanding where the naive stereotype of a good salesman is very different than the reality.
Vysero 6y ago
I think you are WAY off base here. Most men aren't having sex not because women are turning them down; that's an appreciable factor for dating perhaps, but not for casual sex. They aren't having sex because they are NEVER putting themselves in a position to have sex. They aren't going to bars and they aren't hitting on women.
- tonystubblebine 6y ago
  I don't see where we disagree. Both can be true.
  - Vysero 6y ago
    Well your answer revolves around dating which is not casual sex. In that answer you address how men should treat women, but men aren't having sex because they simply aren't talking to women at all... it has nothing to do with how they treat them. This is an issue of self confidence: both the lack of it in men, and the steadily increasing amount of it in women.
    - tonystubblebine 6y ago
      I'm sorry, I'm still not getting the disagreement unless you are thinking that the discussion is meant to be only about casual sex or that sex doesn't happen between people who are dating. I checked the original article and it doesn't differentiate. So, that's why I think it's more likely that we are actually in agreement. Yes, I agree, it seems like many of the people complaining here and also in the research aren't putting themselves in a position to get turned down at all. (Or if they are it's in some minimal way like putting a profile on Tinder and not being very active).
starpilot 6y ago
Or you can pretend to be a hot, high-status guy on Tinder and see how much easier life is for them. Spoiler: it's an entirely different world.
- tonystubblebine 6y ago
  People should read @starpilot and ask themselves how much of their dating goals are about love and relationships and how much has nothing to do with women and everything to do with impressing other men. I 100% agree that someone else has it better than you. Pick any facet of your life and this will be true. There's no practical value to focusing on your status among other men unless status is actually your goal for dating. You're going to have to do X amount of work on yourself and on the process. That doesn't change just because some other guy has to do .25X.

quasarj 6y ago

I'm glad you brought up the friend-zone thing. I feel like I'm extremely good at all the things you listed before that, and I have a ton of female friends (which I love, don't get me wrong). I just have no idea to turn that into sex.

tonystubblebine 6y ago
Great. I guarantee you are 100x closer to figuring out your love life than anyone here talking about wealth, looks or status. I don't want to be a love coach. But how are you with making an ask? Do you ever use clear language like, "Would you like to go on a date?" or if you're on a date, "Would you like to hold hands?" "Can I kiss you?" She's on a date for a reason too. And if the answer is no, then congratulations on sorting a person from the unknown bucket into the no-romantic-interest bucket. If they say no, accept the answer respectfully and move on.
- dingaling 6y ago
  > But how are you with making an ask? Sure, encourage him. But also coach him for the inevitable "I don't think of you like that" response. Extra points if she adds "you're too good a friend". Categorisation into the Friend Zone happens within minutes of first meeting. There's no way out of that box.
  - tonystubblebine 6y ago
    A lot of people in this thread are talking about impossible standards of wealth and looks and being in the top 20% of men or higher. But not enough people are talking about this standard. Can you ask a woman out without making her feel scared? I think your fear often comes across as dangerous. So, ok, fine. Asking women out is scary. I was young, I remember that. But if you never ask anyone out what are you really complaining about. And if all you ever did was ask one person out, get rejected, and then you've been sulking about it every since, that's not any better. Hard is not the same thing as impossible. Hundreds of millions of men have figured this out.
shuntress 6y ago
>I just have no idea to turn that into sex. This seems indicative of the exact line of thinking the parent comment notes does not typically work. >"I'm laughing at her jokes because I hope that will make her sleep with me."
Debugreality 6y ago

troughway 6y ago

>Whereas treating women like people, looking them in the eyes, listening, being curious, trying to find ways to relate--these can be very effective. In other words, in sex and in business, being a good salesman is key.

tonystubblebine 6y ago
And it has the exact same misunderstanding where the naive stereotype of a good salesman is very different than the reality.

Vysero 6y ago

I think you are WAY off base here. Most men aren't having sex not because women are turning them down; that's an appreciable factor for dating perhaps, but not for casual sex. They aren't having sex because they are NEVER putting themselves in a position to have sex. They aren't going to bars and they aren't hitting on women.

tonystubblebine 6y ago
I don't see where we disagree. Both can be true.
- Vysero 6y ago
  Well your answer revolves around dating which is not casual sex. In that answer you address how men should treat women, but men aren't having sex because they simply aren't talking to women at all... it has nothing to do with how they treat them. This is an issue of self confidence: both the lack of it in men, and the steadily increasing amount of it in women.
  - tonystubblebine 6y ago
    I'm sorry, I'm still not getting the disagreement unless you are thinking that the discussion is meant to be only about casual sex or that sex doesn't happen between people who are dating. I checked the original article and it doesn't differentiate. So, that's why I think it's more likely that we are actually in agreement. Yes, I agree, it seems like many of the people complaining here and also in the research aren't putting themselves in a position to get turned down at all. (Or if they are it's in some minimal way like putting a profile on Tinder and not being very active).

starpilot 6y ago

Or you can pretend to be a hot, high-status guy on Tinder and see how much easier life is for them. Spoiler: it's an entirely different world.

tonystubblebine 6y ago
People should read @starpilot and ask themselves how much of their dating goals are about love and relationships and how much has nothing to do with women and everything to do with impressing other men. I 100% agree that someone else has it better than you. Pick any facet of your life and this will be true. There's no practical value to focusing on your status among other men unless status is actually your goal for dating. You're going to have to do X amount of work on yourself and on the process. That doesn't change just because some other guy has to do .25X.