4 ms·

its a nice gesture. whats the problem? back in Germany, only 10 years ago, women were super happy about it. now i am getting called a sexist. times change

bobthepanda 6y ago
it can be viewed as patronizing.
- corpMaverick 6y ago
  You are correct. But many men were educated like that. Because that is what a gentleman does. Same way we were taught to open the door to an older (not old) person as a sign of respect.
  - mmsimanga 6y ago
    Absolutely and give up your seat for elderly person on public transport.
  - bobthepanda 6y ago
    Things change. A sizable portion of people do not like this anymore. Why not just change to accommodate peoples' wishes rather than be a stick in the mud?
treis 6y ago
It's not appropriate to treat women differently from men in the work place.
- mpfundstein 6y ago
  it was not the work place. it was in a hospital waitibg room. and i meant it as a kind gesture. the world is crazy
  - aspaceman 6y ago
    They didn't take it that way. You can keep yelling about it, or you can use some empathy to try and reason about why they felt that way. One will get you further, one will keep you stuck.
- O1038 6y ago
  I very much agree, let us apply this principle to "diversity" hiring policies!
vzidex 6y ago
Hmm, to me the problem is the question of _why_ a man would do that "nice gesture" for the woman. To me, if you don't have reason to be doing it besides "she's a woman", it smacks that the gesture is being done because she's inferior based on her gender (or at least, that's what's being implied).
- mpfundstein 6y ago
  come on. dont be stupid. i jist wanted tk be nicr. btw i just confirmed with my wife. being a gentleman scored me a lot of points she says.. so call me sexist as much as you want :-) i already won . jk
- wreath 6y ago
  You're reading too much into it I'm afraid.
- cgriswald 6y ago
  It could also imply she’s thought superior based on gender and the man is showing submission. The problem is the interpretation of an action to automatically imply a certain mode of thought. None of us have access to the thoughts of others and holding a door open or saying “ladies first” is not ipso facto indicative of a misogynist view; especially among people who were taught it is good manners.
  - mmsimanga 6y ago
    Good catch. Parent brought in the word inferior.
  - vzidex 6y ago
    > it could also imply she's thought superior based on gender From talking to the women in my life, that would also be bad. They've told me that being treated as "superior" for their gender makes them feel that the rest of who they are - their accomplishments, knowledge, skills, etc. - is invalidated. > saying "ladies first" is not ipso facto indicative of a misogynist view You're right, but saying "ladies first" makes many women feel patronized - not a good thing. > especially among people who were taught it is good manners I'd say to those people: even if you learned that "ladies first" is good manners, that doesn't mean it still is. It's important to listen to the people around you to hear how they want to be treated, and what we're arguing in this thread is that women these days don't want to hear "ladies first" because - as stated before - it makes them feel patronized.
rietta 6y ago
With the Titanic it was "Women and children in the life boats first" (setting aside massive lack of preparation for the event and locking 3rd class people below decks - despicable). Historically it would seem that this gesture is not based upon the presumption that women are weaker or inferior but are to be treated with greater respect. The "weaker vessel" in Bible language has been interpreted as being the nicer/finer of God's creation. The men were to drown first.

bobthepanda 6y ago

it can be viewed as patronizing.

corpMaverick 6y ago
You are correct. But many men were educated like that. Because that is what a gentleman does. Same way we were taught to open the door to an older (not old) person as a sign of respect.
- mmsimanga 6y ago
  Absolutely and give up your seat for elderly person on public transport.
- bobthepanda 6y ago
  Things change. A sizable portion of people do not like this anymore. Why not just change to accommodate peoples' wishes rather than be a stick in the mud?

treis 6y ago

It's not appropriate to treat women differently from men in the work place.

mpfundstein 6y ago
it was not the work place. it was in a hospital waitibg room. and i meant it as a kind gesture. the world is crazy
- aspaceman 6y ago
  They didn't take it that way. You can keep yelling about it, or you can use some empathy to try and reason about why they felt that way. One will get you further, one will keep you stuck.
O1038 6y ago
I very much agree, let us apply this principle to "diversity" hiring policies!

vzidex 6y ago

Hmm, to me the problem is the question of _why_ a man would do that "nice gesture" for the woman. To me, if you don't have reason to be doing it besides "she's a woman", it smacks that the gesture is being done because she's inferior based on her gender (or at least, that's what's being implied).

mpfundstein 6y ago
come on. dont be stupid. i jist wanted tk be nicr. btw i just confirmed with my wife. being a gentleman scored me a lot of points she says.. so call me sexist as much as you want :-) i already won . jk
wreath 6y ago
You're reading too much into it I'm afraid.
cgriswald 6y ago
It could also imply she’s thought superior based on gender and the man is showing submission. The problem is the interpretation of an action to automatically imply a certain mode of thought. None of us have access to the thoughts of others and holding a door open or saying “ladies first” is not ipso facto indicative of a misogynist view; especially among people who were taught it is good manners.
- mmsimanga 6y ago
  Good catch. Parent brought in the word inferior.
- vzidex 6y ago
  > it could also imply she's thought superior based on gender From talking to the women in my life, that would also be bad. They've told me that being treated as "superior" for their gender makes them feel that the rest of who they are - their accomplishments, knowledge, skills, etc. - is invalidated. > saying "ladies first" is not ipso facto indicative of a misogynist view You're right, but saying "ladies first" makes many women feel patronized - not a good thing. > especially among people who were taught it is good manners I'd say to those people: even if you learned that "ladies first" is good manners, that doesn't mean it still is. It's important to listen to the people around you to hear how they want to be treated, and what we're arguing in this thread is that women these days don't want to hear "ladies first" because - as stated before - it makes them feel patronized.

rietta 6y ago

With the Titanic it was "Women and children in the life boats first" (setting aside massive lack of preparation for the event and locking 3rd class people below decks - despicable). Historically it would seem that this gesture is not based upon the presumption that women are weaker or inferior but are to be treated with greater respect. The "weaker vessel" in Bible language has been interpreted as being the nicer/finer of God's creation. The men were to drown first.