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The conservative political commentator (and never-Trumper) David Frum has commented about this and the general decline in coupling between the sexes among young

The conservative political commentator (and never-Trumper) David Frum has commented about this and the general decline in coupling between the sexes among young people. He believes that part of the reason comes from the economic hurdles facing many millennials; it's harder to get your own place or have a sense of financial confidence, so starting a family or embarking on a relationship may seem more daunting. He also thinks that this will make gender an even greater political and social fault-line, as men and women will spend less time knowing and understanding each other.

toomuchtodo 6y ago
I wrote a comment that dives into this a bit ~3 months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22407388 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22407388 If you don't want to read the whole thing (it's brief though, so consider it, and includes citations that I don't want to pollute this thread with), the high level TLDR is (based on the data) men are content to date down, women are not, and economically disadvantaged men (which there are more of due to globalization and other macro factors) are exiting the dating marketplace, creating a market imbalance. Toss in data showing men online target ~20-25 years old for a partner, while women prefer to date around their age as they age (+-5 years), and here we are. Edit: Regardless of the political leanings of the person you reference, I would agree with that thesis (economic hurdles and a lack of empathy and societal/community cohesion will cause existing rifts to widen).
- mellosouls 6y ago
  men are content to date down, women are not This misses a fundamental point that has been made clear since the advent of Tinder and the like. The terrible experience and loneliness of men not in the top 20% on those apps is because the women on them are not content to date on their level, or even below several rungs above them. Let alone "date down". I've seen this happen with multiple friends of mine, decent (not nerds but not alpha) guys who have to swipe hundreds for a single match. It's absurd. This is the great unsayable (in correct society) that has actually been said loudly for years in masculinist fora, most viciously and notoriously by the incels. The adage is that in environments like dating apps, 80% of women go for 20% of men. Exaggeration or no, there is real truth there that society needs to wake up to if it has any care at all for the mental and emotional health of men.
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    Society can't "wake up", this is what it wanted. Women being equal, but not interested in "lesser" partners, causes a natural imbalance. You can't "fix" the imbalance without removing free will from market participants.
    - mellosouls 6y ago
      The history of social constructs and law has been about constraining and enabling "market" participants. Free will doesn't come into it unless you live in an anarchy. Sometimes those social changes have good results, sometimes bad. Here there is a clear social ill that has been dismissed for years whenever it is raised in edge fora - perhaps with studies like this being publicised in respectable publications we will begin to look at what we can do to improve the lot of a significant marginalised group.
  - newguy1234 6y ago
    I think the problem (from my experience as a 30 year old man) is that young men absolutely struggle to find women that are in their age range. Young women often go after older men, with established careers and incomes. If young women do date their age group then they go after men that have better looks, money, popularity and so on. So the end result is the vast majority of young men are completely dateless. I remember when I was a young man, I absolutely struggled to get a date even though I tried very hard. I was always rejected. Women didn't even want to talk to me! If I small chatted with them they would always find some reason to get out of the conversation. When I did actually manage to get a date it was because the woman specifically went after me. I had a small relationship with her but it mostly fizzled out over time. I spent most of my youth simply working and getting my degree. Now I am 30 years old, have a solid career and excellent financials. I have a spouse now and I don't bother with these young entitled women anymore. I think all men should do the same. Work hard, get a good career and then find a woman who is also financially successful.
luckylion 6y ago
> economic hurdles facing many millennials This would affect men and women equally, but it doesn't, so that seems not to be it.
pacija 6y ago
Back in a day, quite some time ago, I started screwing around when I was 16. Most of the parents were quite conservative so they didn't allow kids to do it at their places where we, kids, lived, at least not to their knowledge. But we used every occasion to do it while they were at work. Or at birthdays and other home parties. In parks. At the graveyards. On roofs. In basements. Any place where we could get half an hour without people passing by. I think I never had as much sex as when I didn't have my own apartment. The decline started after I finally got it, in my late twenties :) So while I understand that not having your own place or financial stability can affect people's will to start a family, I tink it's too early to start to worry about it before at least late twenties. Until then, if people don't screw around on a daily, or at least best-effort basis, something is screwed with their chemistry.
- inamberclad 6y ago
  That's the thing, you're talking about 'back in your day', but this article suggests a major demographic shift.
- watwut 6y ago
  The thing that primary predicts less teenage sex is sexual education. Which is better then used to be. The conservativism of parents where you lived likely contributed to kids having sax in the park hoping nobody will arrest them and charge them with public sex. And honestly, I never witnessed what you described here and I am kinda happy I did not.
  - pacija 6y ago
    Did I understand your point correctly, that you think that having less teen sex is a good thing? Also that it is ok to ruin young people's lives for having sex outside of apartments or hotel rooms?
    - watwut 6y ago
      Given that teenage pregnancies are also down and so are std and so is drug taking, yes. And given how much of effort was put into making teenagers have less sex and use dammit condom, yes. Because side effect of that period were teenage pregnancies that had quite destructive effects for the rest of those kids lives. And side effect of sexual education are safer sex practices. On the second point, that is actual risk involved. I would not made those laws, but I can't change them. Third thought, it is also not comfortable to lie in park without things like blanked under your body with guy focused on finishing as fast as possible. I don't know how to tell it differently, but in average case the girl won't have that much fun in those quick minutes as guy who has fun until he finished. Which means less drinking and drug taking must be factor in drop of those encounters too, because one of partners would be more likely to refuse the activity.

toomuchtodo 6y ago

I wrote a comment that dives into this a bit ~3 months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22407388 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22407388 If you don't want to read the whole thing (it's brief though, so consider it, and includes citations that I don't want to pollute this thread with), the high level TLDR is (based on the data) men are content to date down, women are not, and economically disadvantaged men (which there are more of due to globalization and other macro factors) are exiting the dating marketplace, creating a market imbalance. Toss in data showing men online target ~20-25 years old for a partner, while women prefer to date around their age as they age (+-5 years), and here we are. Edit: Regardless of the political leanings of the person you reference, I would agree with that thesis (economic hurdles and a lack of empathy and societal/community cohesion will cause existing rifts to widen).

mellosouls 6y ago
men are content to date down, women are not This misses a fundamental point that has been made clear since the advent of Tinder and the like. The terrible experience and loneliness of men not in the top 20% on those apps is because the women on them are not content to date on their level, or even below several rungs above them. Let alone "date down". I've seen this happen with multiple friends of mine, decent (not nerds but not alpha) guys who have to swipe hundreds for a single match. It's absurd. This is the great unsayable (in correct society) that has actually been said loudly for years in masculinist fora, most viciously and notoriously by the incels. The adage is that in environments like dating apps, 80% of women go for 20% of men. Exaggeration or no, there is real truth there that society needs to wake up to if it has any care at all for the mental and emotional health of men.
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  Society can't "wake up", this is what it wanted. Women being equal, but not interested in "lesser" partners, causes a natural imbalance. You can't "fix" the imbalance without removing free will from market participants.
  - mellosouls 6y ago
    The history of social constructs and law has been about constraining and enabling "market" participants. Free will doesn't come into it unless you live in an anarchy. Sometimes those social changes have good results, sometimes bad. Here there is a clear social ill that has been dismissed for years whenever it is raised in edge fora - perhaps with studies like this being publicised in respectable publications we will begin to look at what we can do to improve the lot of a significant marginalised group.
- newguy1234 6y ago
  I think the problem (from my experience as a 30 year old man) is that young men absolutely struggle to find women that are in their age range. Young women often go after older men, with established careers and incomes. If young women do date their age group then they go after men that have better looks, money, popularity and so on. So the end result is the vast majority of young men are completely dateless. I remember when I was a young man, I absolutely struggled to get a date even though I tried very hard. I was always rejected. Women didn't even want to talk to me! If I small chatted with them they would always find some reason to get out of the conversation. When I did actually manage to get a date it was because the woman specifically went after me. I had a small relationship with her but it mostly fizzled out over time. I spent most of my youth simply working and getting my degree. Now I am 30 years old, have a solid career and excellent financials. I have a spouse now and I don't bother with these young entitled women anymore. I think all men should do the same. Work hard, get a good career and then find a woman who is also financially successful.

luckylion 6y ago

> economic hurdles facing many millennials This would affect men and women equally, but it doesn't, so that seems not to be it.

pacija 6y ago

Back in a day, quite some time ago, I started screwing around when I was 16. Most of the parents were quite conservative so they didn't allow kids to do it at their places where we, kids, lived, at least not to their knowledge. But we used every occasion to do it while they were at work. Or at birthdays and other home parties. In parks. At the graveyards. On roofs. In basements. Any place where we could get half an hour without people passing by. I think I never had as much sex as when I didn't have my own apartment. The decline started after I finally got it, in my late twenties :) So while I understand that not having your own place or financial stability can affect people's will to start a family, I tink it's too early to start to worry about it before at least late twenties. Until then, if people don't screw around on a daily, or at least best-effort basis, something is screwed with their chemistry.

inamberclad 6y ago
That's the thing, you're talking about 'back in your day', but this article suggests a major demographic shift.
watwut 6y ago
The thing that primary predicts less teenage sex is sexual education. Which is better then used to be. The conservativism of parents where you lived likely contributed to kids having sax in the park hoping nobody will arrest them and charge them with public sex. And honestly, I never witnessed what you described here and I am kinda happy I did not.
- pacija 6y ago
  Did I understand your point correctly, that you think that having less teen sex is a good thing? Also that it is ok to ruin young people's lives for having sex outside of apartments or hotel rooms?
  - watwut 6y ago
    Given that teenage pregnancies are also down and so are std and so is drug taking, yes. And given how much of effort was put into making teenagers have less sex and use dammit condom, yes. Because side effect of that period were teenage pregnancies that had quite destructive effects for the rest of those kids lives. And side effect of sexual education are safer sex practices. On the second point, that is actual risk involved. I would not made those laws, but I can't change them. Third thought, it is also not comfortable to lie in park without things like blanked under your body with guy focused on finishing as fast as possible. I don't know how to tell it differently, but in average case the girl won't have that much fun in those quick minutes as guy who has fun until he finished. Which means less drinking and drug taking must be factor in drop of those encounters too, because one of partners would be more likely to refuse the activity.