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I'm in 100% agreement on the perverse incentives of private prisons; however it's worth noting that similar incentives exist for prison guard unions, even for p

I'm in 100% agreement on the perverse incentives of private prisons; however it's worth noting that similar incentives exist for prison guard unions, even for publicly managed prisons: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Correctional_Peace_Officers_Association#Lobbying https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Correctional_Peace_... Abolishing private prisons is a good start, but we need much more drastic reform to the prison-industrial complex and failed "tough on crime" policies, particular in the realms of drug policy, community investment, and mental health.

Retric 6y ago
Prison guard unions have vastly less financial resources to work with and a wider range of issues they care about. They often brought up to deflect discussion, but simply operate at a order of magnitude smaller scale.
- opo 6y ago
  >...They often brought up to deflect discussion, but simply operate at a order of magnitude smaller scale. That is simply not correct. >...In the 2016 election cycle, private prisons gave a record $1.6 million to candidates, parties and outside spending groups. 90% of that came from one company (GEO Group). https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/indus.php?ind=G7000 https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/indus.php?ind=G7000 Now compare the private prison industry to the prison guard union in CA CCPOA(California Correctional Peace Officers Association). >...These dues raise approximately $23 million each year, of which the CCPOA allocates approximately $8 million to lobbying. This is just the CA prison guard union and it is $8 million a year. From the same article: >...many of [CCPOA’s] contributions are directly pro-incarceration. It gave over $100,000 to California’s Three Strikes initiative, Proposition 184 in 1994, making it the second-largest contributor. It gave at least $75,000 to the opponents of Proposition 36, the 2000 initiative that replaced incarceration with substance abuse treatment for certain nonviolent offenders. From 1998 to 2000 it gave over $120,000 to crime victims’ groups, who present a more sympathetic face to the public in their pro-incarceration advocacy. It spent over $1 million to help defeat Proposition 66, the 2004 initiative that would have limited the crimes that triggered a life sentence under the Three Strikes law. And in 2005, it killed Gov. Schwarzenegger’s plan to “reduce the prison population by as much as 20,000, mainly through a program that diverted parole violators into rehabilitation efforts: drug programs, halfway houses and home detention.” https://californiapolicycenter.org/the-role-of-the-prison-guards-union-in-californias-troubled-prison-system/ https://californiapolicycenter.org/the-role-of-the-prison-gu... Besides lobbying for more incarceration, they also lobby to prevent accountability: >...Between 1989 and 1999, 39 inmates were shot to death, and 200 more were wounded. Not one district attorney in the state prosecuted a correctional officer for any of these assaults. ... Local district attorneys have good reason to hesitate before taking a position against the CCPOA’s interests. Greg Strickland, former district attorney in Kings County, home to Corcoran state correctional facilitity, attempted to take a brutality case to the grand jury. The CCPOA fueled his opponent with $30,000 in the next election, leading to Strickland’s defeat. A similar scenario happened in Del Norte County and in Susanville. https://web.archive.org/web/20061006074501/http://www.cjcj.org/cpp/political_power.php https://web.archive.org/web/20061006074501/http://www.cjcj.o...
  - Retric 6y ago
    The second quote which gives various numbers across multiple different years, including 1994 lobbing showing relatively small amounts in most years. Though one very big one in 2004 at 1 million, but just $75,000 in 2000. So, very rare big spends on election years vs constant multimillion dollar annual donations. You further misunderstood the first link the bar chart below lists 4.3 million in 2019 and 2.8 million in 2016. But, that’s a subset of total spending which very focused on their bottom line. PS: California is both very large and unusual in it’s use of propositions for major policies which confuses the issue. Nationwide union spending has a vastly lower average.
    - opo 6y ago
      >...The second quote which gives various numbers across multiple different years, including 1994 lobbing showing relatively small amounts in most years. I never implied this was a total breakdown of their lobbying money. They spend an estimated 8 million a year on lobbying. As the wikipedia article says: >...Although its membership is relatively small, representing only about one tenth the membership of the California Teachers Association, CCPOA political activity routinely exceeds that of all other labor unions in California. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Correctional_Peace_Officers_Association https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Correctional_Peace_... >...You further misunderstood the first link the bar chart below lists 4.3 million in 2019 and 2.8 million in 2016. But, that’s a subset of total spending which very focused on their bottom line. Sorry, I was in a hurry and didn't notice they had a chart for Lobbying Totals, 1998-2019, that gives a better indication than just 2016. That shows a little over $4 million total political lobbying nationally by the private prison industry. That compares to $8 million alone in CA by the prison guard union. You originally said: >...They often brought up to deflect discussion, but simply operate at a order of magnitude smaller scale. This one union in one state spends more on lobbying than the private prison industry. And as the article says: >...“The formula is simple: more prisoners lead to more prisons; more prisons require more guards; more guards means more dues-paying members and fund-raising capability; and fund-raising, of course, translates into political influence.” The political contributions of the CA prison guard union are obviously not being done to lower the number of prison guard positions. It wasn't the private prison lobby that pushed through all that bad policy in CA. In reality, private prisons are often brought up to deflect discussion. The reality is private prisons house a small percentage of prisoners and are a tiny part of the prison industrial complex. CA getting rid of private prisons isn't going to help reform a broken prison system. >...Nationwide union spending has a vastly lower average. You haven't given any evidence that is true. Even if true, just because it costs less to influence policy in other states, doesn't mean they aren't trying to do it.
- lukifer 6y ago
  I'm on the left, and I'm not trying to deflect, engage in "whataboutism", or castigate unions in general. But all humans can succumb to perverse incentives: executives, stockholders, political representatives, and yes, even middle-class workers. The systemic corruption of police and prisons runs so deep, we need to be able to "walk and chew gum" in order to fix it, rather than assume that we can pull out a single thorn of bad policy.
ogre_codes 6y ago
> Abolishing private prisons is a good start, but we need much more drastic reform to the prison-industrial complex and failed "tough on crime" policies, particular in the realms of drug policy, community investment, and mental health. Yes, very much so.
chr1 6y ago
A simple way to fix incentives would be to allow private prisons, and to allow inmates to choose the prison they will stay at.

Retric 6y ago

Prison guard unions have vastly less financial resources to work with and a wider range of issues they care about. They often brought up to deflect discussion, but simply operate at a order of magnitude smaller scale.

opo 6y ago
>...They often brought up to deflect discussion, but simply operate at a order of magnitude smaller scale. That is simply not correct. >...In the 2016 election cycle, private prisons gave a record $1.6 million to candidates, parties and outside spending groups. 90% of that came from one company (GEO Group). https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/indus.php?ind=G7000 https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/indus.php?ind=G7000 Now compare the private prison industry to the prison guard union in CA CCPOA(California Correctional Peace Officers Association). >...These dues raise approximately $23 million each year, of which the CCPOA allocates approximately $8 million to lobbying. This is just the CA prison guard union and it is $8 million a year. From the same article: >...many of [CCPOA’s] contributions are directly pro-incarceration. It gave over $100,000 to California’s Three Strikes initiative, Proposition 184 in 1994, making it the second-largest contributor. It gave at least $75,000 to the opponents of Proposition 36, the 2000 initiative that replaced incarceration with substance abuse treatment for certain nonviolent offenders. From 1998 to 2000 it gave over $120,000 to crime victims’ groups, who present a more sympathetic face to the public in their pro-incarceration advocacy. It spent over $1 million to help defeat Proposition 66, the 2004 initiative that would have limited the crimes that triggered a life sentence under the Three Strikes law. And in 2005, it killed Gov. Schwarzenegger’s plan to “reduce the prison population by as much as 20,000, mainly through a program that diverted parole violators into rehabilitation efforts: drug programs, halfway houses and home detention.” https://californiapolicycenter.org/the-role-of-the-prison-guards-union-in-californias-troubled-prison-system/ https://californiapolicycenter.org/the-role-of-the-prison-gu... Besides lobbying for more incarceration, they also lobby to prevent accountability: >...Between 1989 and 1999, 39 inmates were shot to death, and 200 more were wounded. Not one district attorney in the state prosecuted a correctional officer for any of these assaults. ... Local district attorneys have good reason to hesitate before taking a position against the CCPOA’s interests. Greg Strickland, former district attorney in Kings County, home to Corcoran state correctional facilitity, attempted to take a brutality case to the grand jury. The CCPOA fueled his opponent with $30,000 in the next election, leading to Strickland’s defeat. A similar scenario happened in Del Norte County and in Susanville. https://web.archive.org/web/20061006074501/http://www.cjcj.org/cpp/political_power.php https://web.archive.org/web/20061006074501/http://www.cjcj.o...
- Retric 6y ago
  The second quote which gives various numbers across multiple different years, including 1994 lobbing showing relatively small amounts in most years. Though one very big one in 2004 at 1 million, but just $75,000 in 2000. So, very rare big spends on election years vs constant multimillion dollar annual donations. You further misunderstood the first link the bar chart below lists 4.3 million in 2019 and 2.8 million in 2016. But, that’s a subset of total spending which very focused on their bottom line. PS: California is both very large and unusual in it’s use of propositions for major policies which confuses the issue. Nationwide union spending has a vastly lower average.
  - opo 6y ago
    >...The second quote which gives various numbers across multiple different years, including 1994 lobbing showing relatively small amounts in most years. I never implied this was a total breakdown of their lobbying money. They spend an estimated 8 million a year on lobbying. As the wikipedia article says: >...Although its membership is relatively small, representing only about one tenth the membership of the California Teachers Association, CCPOA political activity routinely exceeds that of all other labor unions in California. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Correctional_Peace_Officers_Association https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Correctional_Peace_... >...You further misunderstood the first link the bar chart below lists 4.3 million in 2019 and 2.8 million in 2016. But, that’s a subset of total spending which very focused on their bottom line. Sorry, I was in a hurry and didn't notice they had a chart for Lobbying Totals, 1998-2019, that gives a better indication than just 2016. That shows a little over $4 million total political lobbying nationally by the private prison industry. That compares to $8 million alone in CA by the prison guard union. You originally said: >...They often brought up to deflect discussion, but simply operate at a order of magnitude smaller scale. This one union in one state spends more on lobbying than the private prison industry. And as the article says: >...“The formula is simple: more prisoners lead to more prisons; more prisons require more guards; more guards means more dues-paying members and fund-raising capability; and fund-raising, of course, translates into political influence.” The political contributions of the CA prison guard union are obviously not being done to lower the number of prison guard positions. It wasn't the private prison lobby that pushed through all that bad policy in CA. In reality, private prisons are often brought up to deflect discussion. The reality is private prisons house a small percentage of prisoners and are a tiny part of the prison industrial complex. CA getting rid of private prisons isn't going to help reform a broken prison system. >...Nationwide union spending has a vastly lower average. You haven't given any evidence that is true. Even if true, just because it costs less to influence policy in other states, doesn't mean they aren't trying to do it.
lukifer 6y ago
I'm on the left, and I'm not trying to deflect, engage in "whataboutism", or castigate unions in general. But all humans can succumb to perverse incentives: executives, stockholders, political representatives, and yes, even middle-class workers. The systemic corruption of police and prisons runs so deep, we need to be able to "walk and chew gum" in order to fix it, rather than assume that we can pull out a single thorn of bad policy.

ogre_codes 6y ago

> Abolishing private prisons is a good start, but we need much more drastic reform to the prison-industrial complex and failed "tough on crime" policies, particular in the realms of drug policy, community investment, and mental health. Yes, very much so.

chr1 6y ago

A simple way to fix incentives would be to allow private prisons, and to allow inmates to choose the prison they will stay at.