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> The problem is that both hardware and software are garbage. I think it's incredible that, in my lifetime, computers went from giant mainframes with dedicated

by trimbo 6y ago

> The problem is that both hardware and software are garbage. I think it's incredible that, in my lifetime, computers went from giant mainframes with dedicated hard-line terminals to always-connected supercomputers in everyone's pocket, worldwide. Furthermore, anyone can use the internet to learn how to program. Maybe that's garbage compared to some mythical ideal but in terms of impact on the world it's incredible. > I know that most of the programmers did not work with systems where it's very, very easy to debug the whole stack and you can learn it in a short period but it's amazing when you have knowledge about EVERY part of the system in your head. Well, you can tell from the above that I was around then. I started programming with a single manual and the Beagle Brothers "Peeks, Pokes and Pointers" cheatsheet[1]. People forget that the software itself had to do much less than it does today. Here's just one angle to judge: security. We did not have a worldwide interconnected network with so many people trying to steal data from it. We all used rsh and packets were flying around in cleartext, no problem. But today, all software will have to incorporate TLS. And far fewer people built that simpler software. EA's first titles were written by one or two people. Now a typical EA title has hundreds of people working on it. Things will get better than where they are today. In the future, the industry will have invest more money in "10X" productivity and reliability improvements. Eventually, I think that will happen as productivity continues to slow on large codebases. [1] - https://downloads.reactivemicro.com/Apple%20II%20Items/Documentation/Books/Beagle%20Brothers%20-%20Peeks,%20Pokes%20and%20Pointers.png https://downloads.reactivemicro.com/Apple%20II%20Items/Docum...

Nextgrid 6y ago
And yet, even doing something as basic as a smart doorbell requires a backend server somewhere (essentially a mainframe) and all kinds of NAT hole-punching, UPnP and proprietary push notifications despite the supercomputer in your pocket technically being able to listen for incoming TCP or UDP packets from the doorbell directly. The "supercomputer" processing power is also being wasted on all kinds of malicious and defective-by-design endeavors such as ads, analytics, etc (install any mainstream app and look at the network traffic, 90% of it will be for analytics and can be blocked with no ill effects). Despite the supercomputers being 10x faster than the early ones (back in the iPhone 3G days) we somehow lost the ability to render a 60fps non-stuttering UI despite modern UIs being less rich and consisting mostly of whitespace. > anyone can use the internet to learn how to program I think there used to be a "golden age" of this where the resources were all available for free and at the same time the stacks were manageable (think basic PHP deployed on shared hosting or Ruby or Django) where as nowadays it is considered "wrong" if you don't use Kubernetes, 10 microservices and 100+ NPM packages just to serve a "Hello world" page to a browser.
- trimbo 6y ago
  I agree that software has gotten overly complex for the benefit, and Kubernetes is a good example. But it will improve again. You mentioned Ruby and Django... the popularity of those in the Aughts were a swing back towards simplicity from overly complex Enterprise Java. Remember?
  - asdfman123 6y ago
    I wish smaller shops had some smaller role model to follow instead of your Facebooks or Googles. No, we don't need the same tools they use, because they use those tools to deal with deep organizational and technical complexity. If you don't have deep organizational complexity, and especially if you don't have separate data stores, you don't need microservices.
    - tarsinge 6y ago
      It’s exactly my philosophy in the small shop I founded, it’s a real struggle to educate both developers and clients.
      - Nextgrid 6y ago
        Are you an agency? I'd love to hear your experience with this problem. As a contractor I find it very hard to find clients with "sane" stacks to work on. Even early stage companies nowadays (who would typically get contractors to build their MVP) seem to already settle on an overcomplicated mess despite their scale not warranting it. Maybe I'm just looking in the wrong place.
        tarsinge 6y ago
        Yes we are an Agency, so we are fortunately able to choose the stack, but still have to convince (it hopefully gives us an edge on pricing). It’s a reality clients are looking for buzzwords because that’s what they hear and they want industry standard, cannot blame them. From what I see in our niche what we are choosing to do is the exception, so indeed I imagine it must be hard as a contractor to find simple stacks to work on.
nightski 6y ago
Nothing wrong with being excited by the progress made but I think engineers (well, especially myself) tend to be critical of things because it is in our nature. We see what they could be, not what they are. I think vocalizing how bad the current situation feels is the only path to improvement. You seem convinced that things will get better. I don't think all of us are that optimistic (and I am generally an optimist!).

by trimbo 6y ago

Nextgrid 6y ago

And yet, even doing something as basic as a smart doorbell requires a backend server somewhere (essentially a mainframe) and all kinds of NAT hole-punching, UPnP and proprietary push notifications despite the supercomputer in your pocket technically being able to listen for incoming TCP or UDP packets from the doorbell directly. The "supercomputer" processing power is also being wasted on all kinds of malicious and defective-by-design endeavors such as ads, analytics, etc (install any mainstream app and look at the network traffic, 90% of it will be for analytics and can be blocked with no ill effects). Despite the supercomputers being 10x faster than the early ones (back in the iPhone 3G days) we somehow lost the ability to render a 60fps non-stuttering UI despite modern UIs being less rich and consisting mostly of whitespace. > anyone can use the internet to learn how to program I think there used to be a "golden age" of this where the resources were all available for free and at the same time the stacks were manageable (think basic PHP deployed on shared hosting or Ruby or Django) where as nowadays it is considered "wrong" if you don't use Kubernetes, 10 microservices and 100+ NPM packages just to serve a "Hello world" page to a browser.

trimbo 6y ago
I agree that software has gotten overly complex for the benefit, and Kubernetes is a good example. But it will improve again. You mentioned Ruby and Django... the popularity of those in the Aughts were a swing back towards simplicity from overly complex Enterprise Java. Remember?
- asdfman123 6y ago
  I wish smaller shops had some smaller role model to follow instead of your Facebooks or Googles. No, we don't need the same tools they use, because they use those tools to deal with deep organizational and technical complexity. If you don't have deep organizational complexity, and especially if you don't have separate data stores, you don't need microservices.
  - tarsinge 6y ago
    It’s exactly my philosophy in the small shop I founded, it’s a real struggle to educate both developers and clients.
    - Nextgrid 6y ago
      Are you an agency? I'd love to hear your experience with this problem. As a contractor I find it very hard to find clients with "sane" stacks to work on. Even early stage companies nowadays (who would typically get contractors to build their MVP) seem to already settle on an overcomplicated mess despite their scale not warranting it. Maybe I'm just looking in the wrong place.
      - tarsinge 6y ago
        Yes we are an Agency, so we are fortunately able to choose the stack, but still have to convince (it hopefully gives us an edge on pricing). It’s a reality clients are looking for buzzwords because that’s what they hear and they want industry standard, cannot blame them. From what I see in our niche what we are choosing to do is the exception, so indeed I imagine it must be hard as a contractor to find simple stacks to work on.

nightski 6y ago

Nothing wrong with being excited by the progress made but I think engineers (well, especially myself) tend to be critical of things because it is in our nature. We see what they could be, not what they are. I think vocalizing how bad the current situation feels is the only path to improvement. You seem convinced that things will get better. I don't think all of us are that optimistic (and I am generally an optimist!).