5 ms·

And of course a complete disregard for human remains at the time. Nothing surprising.

duxup 6y ago
I suppose if it is illegal there's little room for actual regard for human remains.
echelon 6y ago
If we hadn't broken the rules to study anatomy, we wouldn't have modern medicine. Scientific advances are often made by pushing past the qualms of present cultural mores.
- INTPenis 6y ago
  Yes, that was the opinion of Dr. Mengele. Ok I added that to be colorful, I understand your point. But at the time there was also a disregard for the human remains of poor and unknown people. Their bodies were often used, and sometimes exhumed, for medical research. This research could have been concluded with a proper burial, but instead they were simply thrown into a basement.
  - wowMyFriend 6y ago
    Wow, you're really coming across as such a magnanimous individual. We should thank our lucky stars that we have a solemn protector like you watching over us. It feels incredible to be able to say: INTPenis is saving us from wrongthink.
  - Nasrudith 6y ago
    Mengele was a doubly bad example for scientific ethics because the cruelties he committed weren't even remotely scientific. Bad ethics can lead one astray to that nonsense. There is no quandry there when there isn't anything to gain through depravity. Compare that to the quandry of resurrectionists and doctors - a noble goal and duty to save lives, when the principles are already that life is more important than property. As far back as even Dante Alighieri smashing a baptismal font to rescue a boy from drowning. Such ghoulish behavior fully fit in with the underlying ethics as righteous even if society found it abhorrent. The basement approach seems to be an unfortunate side effect of the illegality - disposal via even improper burials doubles the risk of being caught. Let alone transporting a coffin "from nowhere" with a skeleton, especially if it was to return where the bodies were "borrowed" from.
    - leoc 6y ago
      Mengele got all the publicity while the Max Planck (née Kaiser Wilhelm) Society kept its head down and quietly held on to all of the people's brains it harvested from T4. https://www.thelocal.de/20170503/german-scientists-to-identify-nazi-disabled-victim-remains https://www.thelocal.de/20170503/german-scientists-to-identi...
  - tartoran 6y ago
    I got an intact model skeleton once, somebody was giving it away when leaving their studio. When I picked it up I had no idea it was real, shoved it into a plastic bag and took it home. At home I was astounded at how well it was made. It looked like real bone, it had the same porosity and detail as bone. Opened up a browser and got pointed to a label on the cranium which certified it as authentic human skeleton. Forgot the details but that was a real skeleton. They were imported before the 50s-60s from Asia, probably India. Meanwhile they became somewhat illegal to trade, I found. Actually shipping human bones became illegal. On ebay they were posted for around $5000. Scary. It’s sad that someones remains are subjects of commerce. I took it to a police precinct, they said they’d send it to a crematorium.
    - dhosek 6y ago
      My high school biology teacher had a human skeleton and an additional skull in the classroom/lab. I remember him at one point saying that they were sourced from India. Apparently the legal trade in skeletons from India continued into the 1980s. https://www.npr.org/transcripts/594907805 https://www.npr.org/transcripts/594907805 The black market trade is probably still ongoing (the linked article is from 2007). https://www.wired.com/2007/11/ff-bones/ https://www.wired.com/2007/11/ff-bones/
- f0ok 6y ago
  You're right, and it brings controversy. Many times discoveries were made because of unethical approaches: they save time, resources, and debates. But sometimes there can be a moral price to pay.
- leoc 6y ago
  No kidding. https://www.thelocal.de/20170503/german-scientists-to-identify-nazi-disabled-victim-remains https://www.thelocal.de/20170503/german-scientists-to-identi... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burke_and_Hare_murders https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burke_and_Hare_murders http://blogs.nature.com/news/2011/02/guatemala.html http://blogs.nature.com/news/2011/02/guatemala.html https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjDEsGZLbio https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjDEsGZLbio
  - ajhurliman 6y ago
    The difference here, which I think is a major one, is that the examples you've listed disregard the wellbeing of humans who are alive. Benjamin Franklin may have disrespected the remains of humans (or maybe he didn't, there's no conclusive evidence here on the dying wishes of those folks in his backyard), but those remains are objects and not humans.
ASalazarMX 6y ago
I'd advocate for a complete disregard of human remains today, because death is supposed to be benefit for the environment. Just reuse the organs that are in good shape, then grind and compost the corpses.
- SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
  I mean, speaking purely objectively, you're probably right, instead of locking the dead away in concrete and wooden boxes, but that's gonna be fun to try and normalize. Maybe we could cute it up? Add the funeral equivalent of the ring bearer to turn on the mulcher for grandma?
  - saalweachter 6y ago
    Just think of it as carbon sequestration.
  - smabie 6y ago
    How about sky burial?
    - SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
      Are you referring to letting the birds eat you, or being fired out of a cannon?
      - c22 6y ago
        Or dropped from orbit and cremated on re-entry?
- Nasrudith 6y ago
  Composting carries risks - generally we don't want anything "eating" human flesh. Scavengers or bacteria as it breeds more virulent pestilence and possibly man eaters. Cremation while a bit ghastly and requiring fuel accomplishes the task the best. But the environment is always a nuanced priority - like deep landfills vs surface dumping of any given substance.
trianglem 6y ago
Who cares about a dead body? In my opinion all dead bodies should be made available to scientific research or anything else after the funeral and final rites are done.
- borski 6y ago
  Evidently, a lot of people care about a dead body, whether for grieving or religious reasons. Your opinion is not the only valid opinion.
- steve_adams_86 6y ago
  Oh god, who cares about a dead body? Try asking me that if any of my family died, or asking any of my family if I died. The body is all that's left. Irrational or not, maybe that's one of the most beautiful things about people. That intense salience that comes from loss, love, compassion, and longing.

I suppose if it is illegal there's little room for actual regard for human remains.

If we hadn't broken the rules to study anatomy, we wouldn't have modern medicine. Scientific advances are often made by pushing past the qualms of present cultural mores.

INTPenis 6y ago
Yes, that was the opinion of Dr. Mengele. Ok I added that to be colorful, I understand your point. But at the time there was also a disregard for the human remains of poor and unknown people. Their bodies were often used, and sometimes exhumed, for medical research. This research could have been concluded with a proper burial, but instead they were simply thrown into a basement.
- wowMyFriend 6y ago
  Wow, you're really coming across as such a magnanimous individual. We should thank our lucky stars that we have a solemn protector like you watching over us. It feels incredible to be able to say: INTPenis is saving us from wrongthink.
- Nasrudith 6y ago
  Mengele was a doubly bad example for scientific ethics because the cruelties he committed weren't even remotely scientific. Bad ethics can lead one astray to that nonsense. There is no quandry there when there isn't anything to gain through depravity. Compare that to the quandry of resurrectionists and doctors - a noble goal and duty to save lives, when the principles are already that life is more important than property. As far back as even Dante Alighieri smashing a baptismal font to rescue a boy from drowning. Such ghoulish behavior fully fit in with the underlying ethics as righteous even if society found it abhorrent. The basement approach seems to be an unfortunate side effect of the illegality - disposal via even improper burials doubles the risk of being caught. Let alone transporting a coffin "from nowhere" with a skeleton, especially if it was to return where the bodies were "borrowed" from.
  - leoc 6y ago
    Mengele got all the publicity while the Max Planck (née Kaiser Wilhelm) Society kept its head down and quietly held on to all of the people's brains it harvested from T4. https://www.thelocal.de/20170503/german-scientists-to-identify-nazi-disabled-victim-remains https://www.thelocal.de/20170503/german-scientists-to-identi...
- tartoran 6y ago
  I got an intact model skeleton once, somebody was giving it away when leaving their studio. When I picked it up I had no idea it was real, shoved it into a plastic bag and took it home. At home I was astounded at how well it was made. It looked like real bone, it had the same porosity and detail as bone. Opened up a browser and got pointed to a label on the cranium which certified it as authentic human skeleton. Forgot the details but that was a real skeleton. They were imported before the 50s-60s from Asia, probably India. Meanwhile they became somewhat illegal to trade, I found. Actually shipping human bones became illegal. On ebay they were posted for around $5000. Scary. It’s sad that someones remains are subjects of commerce. I took it to a police precinct, they said they’d send it to a crematorium.
  - dhosek 6y ago
    My high school biology teacher had a human skeleton and an additional skull in the classroom/lab. I remember him at one point saying that they were sourced from India. Apparently the legal trade in skeletons from India continued into the 1980s. https://www.npr.org/transcripts/594907805 https://www.npr.org/transcripts/594907805 The black market trade is probably still ongoing (the linked article is from 2007). https://www.wired.com/2007/11/ff-bones/ https://www.wired.com/2007/11/ff-bones/
f0ok 6y ago
You're right, and it brings controversy. Many times discoveries were made because of unethical approaches: they save time, resources, and debates. But sometimes there can be a moral price to pay.
leoc 6y ago
No kidding. https://www.thelocal.de/20170503/german-scientists-to-identify-nazi-disabled-victim-remains https://www.thelocal.de/20170503/german-scientists-to-identi... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burke_and_Hare_murders https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burke_and_Hare_murders http://blogs.nature.com/news/2011/02/guatemala.html http://blogs.nature.com/news/2011/02/guatemala.html https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjDEsGZLbio https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjDEsGZLbio
- ajhurliman 6y ago
  The difference here, which I think is a major one, is that the examples you've listed disregard the wellbeing of humans who are alive. Benjamin Franklin may have disrespected the remains of humans (or maybe he didn't, there's no conclusive evidence here on the dying wishes of those folks in his backyard), but those remains are objects and not humans.

ASalazarMX 6y ago

I'd advocate for a complete disregard of human remains today, because death is supposed to be benefit for the environment. Just reuse the organs that are in good shape, then grind and compost the corpses.

SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
I mean, speaking purely objectively, you're probably right, instead of locking the dead away in concrete and wooden boxes, but that's gonna be fun to try and normalize. Maybe we could cute it up? Add the funeral equivalent of the ring bearer to turn on the mulcher for grandma?
- saalweachter 6y ago
  Just think of it as carbon sequestration.
- smabie 6y ago
  How about sky burial?
  - SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
    Are you referring to letting the birds eat you, or being fired out of a cannon?
    - c22 6y ago
      Or dropped from orbit and cremated on re-entry?
Nasrudith 6y ago
Composting carries risks - generally we don't want anything "eating" human flesh. Scavengers or bacteria as it breeds more virulent pestilence and possibly man eaters. Cremation while a bit ghastly and requiring fuel accomplishes the task the best. But the environment is always a nuanced priority - like deep landfills vs surface dumping of any given substance.

trianglem 6y ago

Who cares about a dead body? In my opinion all dead bodies should be made available to scientific research or anything else after the funeral and final rites are done.

borski 6y ago
Evidently, a lot of people care about a dead body, whether for grieving or religious reasons. Your opinion is not the only valid opinion.
steve_adams_86 6y ago
Oh god, who cares about a dead body? Try asking me that if any of my family died, or asking any of my family if I died. The body is all that's left. Irrational or not, maybe that's one of the most beautiful things about people. That intense salience that comes from loss, love, compassion, and longing.