17 ms·

Sure, break them up and eventually get replaced by even larger Chinese companies that you can’t break up.

logicchains 6y ago
I wonder if Baidu, Tencent, et al. have donated anything to these anti-monopoly efforts? Seems like a great way for China to convertly influence America to advance China's own interests, and those companies are in bed with the government so they'd have the resources to do so. *Edit: to whoever flagged this, I'm curious why you think it's so unlikely. Given China's history of state-sponsored espionage and technology transfer to assist its own companies, why wouldn't it be eager to support something that would benefit its own companies even more by breaking up their biggest competitors?
- almost_usual 6y ago
  I really doubt the US government would let a Chinese monopoly take the place of Amazon. Tensions are only rising with China right now.
  - logicchains 6y ago
    Even if it banned the company from America, it couldn't stop it spreading overseas. Like TikTok, which is already eating Facebook and Instagram's lunch.
    - almost_usual 6y ago
      What you’re arguing is “monopolies are OK because China does it”. If we’re arguing about power grabs then what happens if China gets more powerful because they have an authoritarian government? Does that mean the US needs needs to be authoritarian now too? No thanks.
      - logicchains 6y ago
        It's not about okay or not okay, it's just pointing out that breaking up Amazon could actually result in worse outcomes for America.
        almost_usual 6y ago
        We’ll be deeper into a Cold War at that point where our allies will need to make decisions about who they’re siding with.
      - roosterdawn 6y ago
        > Does that mean the US needs needs to be authoritarian now too? No thanks. I think that the concern you touched upon is essentially the lose-lose quagmire that we as a country arrived at during the onset of the cold war, a war that I believe never truly ended. To answer your question: the problem with mutually assured destruction doctrine is that it necessarily results in an arms race that no superpower can pull out of. Sadly, I question whether a country can be a superpower without also trending more in the authoritarian direction.
t0mas88 6y ago
Except that you can regulate those Chinese companies easily when they become a problem. Just force them to split or face high import taxes, job done.
- Jtsummers 6y ago
  If, at that point, there's no domestic competition, then you create a vacuum and a problem for the entire economy that depends on those Chinese companies. See the tariffs the past couple years and their impact on US manufacturing.
  - almost_usual 6y ago
    These arguments of “monopolies are OK because China does it” are slippery slopes to authoritarianism.
    - logicchains 6y ago
      The arguments that "we should break up these companies because they're too successful" are slippery slopes to authoritarianism.
      - almost_usual 6y ago
        The United States has been breaking up monopolies longer than China has been the CCP. We still haven’t become an authoritarian government like China.
        logicchains 6y ago
        But the US government is becoming more authoritarian every year.
      - ccsnags 6y ago
        The problem with the modern economy is that companies can become “too successful” using underhanded and ethically questionable practices. They influence the government to pass laws that can strengthen their hold or eliminate competition entirely. They hide behind a wall of government when it is convenient and act like angels when the people want the government to break them up. I don’t know what the answer is, but rewarding corruption and discouraging success are not feasible in the long term. Both arguments above seem legitimate.
ViViDboarder 6y ago
I don’t see how this would work. The US can use sanctions or other legal means of preventing such companies from doing business in the US. China did this for years to ensure US companies didn’t dominate their market (among other reasons).
- logicchains 6y ago
  What happens when one of those giant Chinese (or maybe in the future Indian) companies produces, due to economies of scale, something really useful? Stupid example: 7G internet with steady 10GB/s bandwidth. If America bans it, they'll be at a disadvantage compared to the rest of the world. They could try and copy it / help their own companies develop an equivalent (as China did to try and catch up with the US), but then they'd have just done a reversal, going from breaking up their big companies to trying to help them grow big to compete with China. The further American companies fell behind technogically, the more it would hurt to ban foreign technologies. And the more that large US technology companies were broken up, the slower America would advance technologically. A huge percentage of RND is currently funded by FANG and the like; being somewhat monopoly-like (and having huge economies of scale) is actually what allows them to fund this: in a perfectly competitive market, where margins are razor-thing, nobody has any money to invest in research or moonshots.
- scarface74 6y ago
  Cool. We fix government intervention with more government intervention....

I wonder if Baidu, Tencent, et al. have donated anything to these anti-monopoly efforts? Seems like a great way for China to convertly influence America to advance China's own interests, and those companies are in bed with the government so they'd have the resources to do so. *Edit: to whoever flagged this, I'm curious why you think it's so unlikely. Given China's history of state-sponsored espionage and technology transfer to assist its own companies, why wouldn't it be eager to support something that would benefit its own companies even more by breaking up their biggest competitors?

almost_usual 6y ago
I really doubt the US government would let a Chinese monopoly take the place of Amazon. Tensions are only rising with China right now.
- logicchains 6y ago
  Even if it banned the company from America, it couldn't stop it spreading overseas. Like TikTok, which is already eating Facebook and Instagram's lunch.
  - almost_usual 6y ago
    What you’re arguing is “monopolies are OK because China does it”. If we’re arguing about power grabs then what happens if China gets more powerful because they have an authoritarian government? Does that mean the US needs needs to be authoritarian now too? No thanks.
    - logicchains 6y ago
      It's not about okay or not okay, it's just pointing out that breaking up Amazon could actually result in worse outcomes for America.
      - almost_usual 6y ago
        We’ll be deeper into a Cold War at that point where our allies will need to make decisions about who they’re siding with.
    - roosterdawn 6y ago
      > Does that mean the US needs needs to be authoritarian now too? No thanks. I think that the concern you touched upon is essentially the lose-lose quagmire that we as a country arrived at during the onset of the cold war, a war that I believe never truly ended. To answer your question: the problem with mutually assured destruction doctrine is that it necessarily results in an arms race that no superpower can pull out of. Sadly, I question whether a country can be a superpower without also trending more in the authoritarian direction.

t0mas88 6y ago

Except that you can regulate those Chinese companies easily when they become a problem. Just force them to split or face high import taxes, job done.

Jtsummers 6y ago
If, at that point, there's no domestic competition, then you create a vacuum and a problem for the entire economy that depends on those Chinese companies. See the tariffs the past couple years and their impact on US manufacturing.
- almost_usual 6y ago
  These arguments of “monopolies are OK because China does it” are slippery slopes to authoritarianism.
  - logicchains 6y ago
    The arguments that "we should break up these companies because they're too successful" are slippery slopes to authoritarianism.
    - almost_usual 6y ago
      The United States has been breaking up monopolies longer than China has been the CCP. We still haven’t become an authoritarian government like China.
      - logicchains 6y ago
        But the US government is becoming more authoritarian every year.
    - ccsnags 6y ago
      The problem with the modern economy is that companies can become “too successful” using underhanded and ethically questionable practices. They influence the government to pass laws that can strengthen their hold or eliminate competition entirely. They hide behind a wall of government when it is convenient and act like angels when the people want the government to break them up. I don’t know what the answer is, but rewarding corruption and discouraging success are not feasible in the long term. Both arguments above seem legitimate.

ViViDboarder 6y ago

I don’t see how this would work. The US can use sanctions or other legal means of preventing such companies from doing business in the US. China did this for years to ensure US companies didn’t dominate their market (among other reasons).

logicchains 6y ago
What happens when one of those giant Chinese (or maybe in the future Indian) companies produces, due to economies of scale, something really useful? Stupid example: 7G internet with steady 10GB/s bandwidth. If America bans it, they'll be at a disadvantage compared to the rest of the world. They could try and copy it / help their own companies develop an equivalent (as China did to try and catch up with the US), but then they'd have just done a reversal, going from breaking up their big companies to trying to help them grow big to compete with China. The further American companies fell behind technogically, the more it would hurt to ban foreign technologies. And the more that large US technology companies were broken up, the slower America would advance technologically. A huge percentage of RND is currently funded by FANG and the like; being somewhat monopoly-like (and having huge economies of scale) is actually what allows them to fund this: in a perfectly competitive market, where margins are razor-thing, nobody has any money to invest in research or moonshots.
scarface74 6y ago
Cool. We fix government intervention with more government intervention....