3 ms·

"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Michael Scott We're not going to get different results when we form

by jcims 6y ago

"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Michael Scott We're not going to get different results when we form a union in the US unless we make an attempt to get different results.

dijit 6y ago
No doubt about that. I’m just arguing that the concept is fine, and the implementation is corrupted. Removing the corruption would be great but the issue is not the concept itself.
- waheoo 6y ago
  What if the concept is what leads to the corruption? E.g. communism. Im for unions, it beats the current situation, but im weary of the sales pitch.
  - dijit 6y ago
    But there are non-corrupt unions in other countries? Even some in the US as some commentators have suggested (Screen Actors Guild being one)
    - dependenttypes 6y ago
      Sure, there are non-corrupt unions in some other countries, the question is however how much % of them are not corrupt.
    - waheoo 6y ago
      So? I didnt say it forces you to be corrupt, i said it may lead to that.
  - nathanlied 6y ago
    Are you arguing that unions lead to communism? While Europe has a rich weave of social-democratic governments, that would hardly constitute communism. In fact, I'd daresay actual communist parties in Europe with any real power are a distinct rarity.
    - ciupicri 6y ago
      Socialism is a step towards communism. Unions taking quite a lot of power from the owners of companies is any a way abolition of private property.
    - waheoo 6y ago
      No,my point was that certain power structures encourage corruption. Hell maybe they all do. Maybe that is why modern day democracy actually works (checks and balances) and has very little to do with comunism vs capitalism.
  - pphysch 6y ago
    The "sales pitch" that is relevant here is the one put forth by the DoD and their enormously powerful SIGs for the last 75 years, namely "unions = communism" and "communism = bad". As much as I would like to believe that there is a massive pro-working-class institution in the US that can afford to spend billions per annum on under-the-table PR/propaganda campaigns to shill collective action, it just isn't the case. The MIC on the other hand... putting those socialized taxpayer dollars to work against the evil working class (around the world).
    - waheoo 6y ago
      I dont understand whats the pentagons propaganda machine got to do with me? Not american. Ps, i was not saying communism == unions. Thats fucking retarded on so many levels.
      - pphysch 6y ago
        American military hegemony is a worldwide phenomenon. Unless you are in what is deemed by the MIC as "communist/terrorist/drug-dealer" country, there is going to be a sizeable media+political influence from Western/US interests in your country.
- koheripbal 6y ago
  No, the concept is different in the US. It's conceptually not the same as an EU union. If you think EU unions are great - then you'll need to first educate American union advocates about what they're doing wrong.
Frondo 6y ago
Yes, like dijit said, something modeled after the Screen Actors Guild. You rockstars get your million dollar salaries, no one gets overworked.
- jcims 6y ago
  Great point. Guilds in general are a great way to reboot collective bargaining in the US. That thought occurred to me earlier this year and I completely forgot about it in this thread.
  - newen 6y ago
    What's the difference between a union and a guild? Do Americans just have an aversion to the word union now?
    - thatguy0900 6y ago
      A guild is a collection of independent contractors, a union is typically your own employees. Also guild sounds way cooler.
      - nogabebop23 6y ago
        Guilds (I assume) involve more mead and iron working.
    - kn0where 6y ago
      Probably. See the “Seattle Police Officers Guild” which is definitely a union... police aren’t independent contractors, or craftspeople, etc.
    - Nasrudith 6y ago
      Classic definition wise guilds had a legal monopoly or regulation over a certain trade occupations including the quality and the maximium supply through control of pipelines of licensing and training. Historically they were a often a feudal "link" of control for administration. They meet with the head haberdasher to discuss carrots and sticks of taxation and licensing so they pay willingly and let them shout about unlicensed competitors instead of trying to chase down every last haberdasher to tax. Unions are more "if you piss off every affiliated habberdasher in the city they refuse to make hats until their demands are met".

by jcims 6y ago

dijit 6y ago

No doubt about that. I’m just arguing that the concept is fine, and the implementation is corrupted. Removing the corruption would be great but the issue is not the concept itself.

waheoo 6y ago
What if the concept is what leads to the corruption? E.g. communism. Im for unions, it beats the current situation, but im weary of the sales pitch.
- dijit 6y ago
  But there are non-corrupt unions in other countries? Even some in the US as some commentators have suggested (Screen Actors Guild being one)
  - dependenttypes 6y ago
    Sure, there are non-corrupt unions in some other countries, the question is however how much % of them are not corrupt.
  - waheoo 6y ago
    So? I didnt say it forces you to be corrupt, i said it may lead to that.
- nathanlied 6y ago
  Are you arguing that unions lead to communism? While Europe has a rich weave of social-democratic governments, that would hardly constitute communism. In fact, I'd daresay actual communist parties in Europe with any real power are a distinct rarity.
  - ciupicri 6y ago
    Socialism is a step towards communism. Unions taking quite a lot of power from the owners of companies is any a way abolition of private property.
  - waheoo 6y ago
    No,my point was that certain power structures encourage corruption. Hell maybe they all do. Maybe that is why modern day democracy actually works (checks and balances) and has very little to do with comunism vs capitalism.
- pphysch 6y ago
  The "sales pitch" that is relevant here is the one put forth by the DoD and their enormously powerful SIGs for the last 75 years, namely "unions = communism" and "communism = bad". As much as I would like to believe that there is a massive pro-working-class institution in the US that can afford to spend billions per annum on under-the-table PR/propaganda campaigns to shill collective action, it just isn't the case. The MIC on the other hand... putting those socialized taxpayer dollars to work against the evil working class (around the world).
  - waheoo 6y ago
    I dont understand whats the pentagons propaganda machine got to do with me? Not american. Ps, i was not saying communism == unions. Thats fucking retarded on so many levels.
    - pphysch 6y ago
      American military hegemony is a worldwide phenomenon. Unless you are in what is deemed by the MIC as "communist/terrorist/drug-dealer" country, there is going to be a sizeable media+political influence from Western/US interests in your country.
koheripbal 6y ago
No, the concept is different in the US. It's conceptually not the same as an EU union. If you think EU unions are great - then you'll need to first educate American union advocates about what they're doing wrong.

Frondo 6y ago

Yes, like dijit said, something modeled after the Screen Actors Guild. You rockstars get your million dollar salaries, no one gets overworked.

jcims 6y ago
Great point. Guilds in general are a great way to reboot collective bargaining in the US. That thought occurred to me earlier this year and I completely forgot about it in this thread.
- newen 6y ago
  What's the difference between a union and a guild? Do Americans just have an aversion to the word union now?
  - thatguy0900 6y ago
    A guild is a collection of independent contractors, a union is typically your own employees. Also guild sounds way cooler.
    - nogabebop23 6y ago
      Guilds (I assume) involve more mead and iron working.
  - kn0where 6y ago
    Probably. See the “Seattle Police Officers Guild” which is definitely a union... police aren’t independent contractors, or craftspeople, etc.
  - Nasrudith 6y ago
    Classic definition wise guilds had a legal monopoly or regulation over a certain trade occupations including the quality and the maximium supply through control of pipelines of licensing and training. Historically they were a often a feudal "link" of control for administration. They meet with the head haberdasher to discuss carrots and sticks of taxation and licensing so they pay willingly and let them shout about unlicensed competitors instead of trying to chase down every last haberdasher to tax. Unions are more "if you piss off every affiliated habberdasher in the city they refuse to make hats until their demands are met".