5 ms·

> I'm often the ONLY black guy in the room It's probably my European naiveté talking here, but I seriously wonder if and why that matters to you. Most of us be

by Udo 16y ago

> I'm often the ONLY black guy in the room It's probably my European naiveté talking here, but I seriously wonder if and why that matters to you. Most of us belong to some kind of "minority" in some fashion, sometimes it's visible from the outside, sometimes not. Are things in the USA really so bad that it matters what color your skin is? Isn't tech a business of ideas anyway?

eengstrom 16y ago
I am almost 40. I have been in the IT world actively since 1984 here in Berkeley/San Francisco/Silicon Valley. I have worked in big corporate, nationally and internationally. I have worked with fewer than 10 black men and women in a technical role in my entire career; spanning hundreds of teams and nearly a hundred customers and employers. It matters because opportunity and outcomes aren't equal. The problem isn't purely the IT scene, but one of the greatest challenges the United States faces.
- rick888 16y ago
  I don't think it's anything we need to "fix". Racism is still around to a small degree, but It's not what's keeping black men and women out of IT. It's culture. The culture needs to change for the problem to go away (if it should be considered a problem) and no amount of money and government intervention is going to change it. Why aren't there more male nurses? Why aren't there more female mechanics? I also don't know where you are working, but I've only worked on 10 teams (I'm in software development) and there were at least a few black guys on each of my teams. But, I tend not to look at color. I look at the person.
_delirium 16y ago
It definitely matters in Europe, possibly moreso than in the USA, at least in the circles I've been in (I'm white myself, so this is mostly from observation and friends). In Denmark at least, there is a lot of awkwardness around race, and it certainly isn't the case that non-white people generally feel comfortable in groups where they're the only non-white person (even worse if everyone else is not only white, but specifically of Scandinavian ethnic heritage, which emphasizes the not-like-me-ness even more). I'm not sure of the exact reasons, or how much is actual racism, but there is definitely a vague sense of weirdness/discomfort.
- Udo 16y ago
  That's interesting. I'm from Germany myself, and I'm convinced it's the most unfriendly "western" country ever. There is certainly a lot of racism here, but it generally happens in socially and economically compromised regions with low unemployment, and then it's usually directed toward the Turks (because "they took our jooooooobs"). Not that there are many black people in Germany to begin with, but I worked with a lot of people from different ethnicities over the years and I always got the impression that we're all being treated equally (shitty).
  - wheels 16y ago
    That's a fairly typical German viewpoint. It's something that caught me a bit off guard when I moved to Germany 9 years ago. Germans have a real aversion to noticing their own racism, no doubt that's a product of cultural baggage, but racism is pretty rampant in Germany and permeates all levels of society. A few of questions to suss things out a bit: What would you or your friends parents think if you announced your engagement to a Turkish girl / guy? If in most of society racism isn't problematic, what do you think the chances of an ethnically Turkish chancellor being elected are? Why are people whose grandparents immigrated to Germany still commonly referred to as foreigners?
    - Udo 16y ago
      > What would you or your friends parents think if you announced your engagement to a Turkish girl / guy? I have been in a relationship with a Turkish girl for eight years, dude. Everyone was OK with it. Not once did anyone say anything about it. You know what? It was just fine. > That's a fairly typical German viewpoint Did you just assert that I'm a "fairly typical" German racist? If you knew me at all you wouldn't accuse me of painting Germany in an overly positive light. I hate it here.
      - wheels 16y ago
        Sorry, no, my intent was not at all to paint you as being racist. What I meant as "typically German" is that most Germans, even those who are not particularly racist themselves, have something of a blind-spot for noticing the depth of racism within German society. And sure, there are families where race is a non-issue. I could list examples as well of where I've seen things go the other way, but that's side-stepping my point: surely you'd agree that in many, many families it would be an issue?
prime0196 16y ago
It really doesn't matter to me. I just wish more blacks would realize the power of programming and the opportunities it could potentially provide.
- AlexC04 16y ago
  Maybe there's an economic barrier to that realization? Adults who realize the power of programming were likely children with access to a computer growing up. In Malcolm Gladwell's "Outliers" he tells the story of Bill Gates and Bill Joy - two prolific programmers. The key similarity between them was their unfettered access to a computer growing up. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_inequality_in_the_United_States#Race_and_gender_disparities http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_inequality_in_the_United... Indicates that US Blacks earn less on average. Perhaps a good number of black kids don't have a computer to spend the required time needed to realize the power. Perhaps donating your old computer to inner-city and after school programs would help a kid realize that. Wishing won't do anything, but if you've got computers "lying around" that you were going to get rid of, there are programs that distribute them to people who could use them. Google turned up: http://www.computerswithcauses.org/ http://www.computerswithcauses.org/
  - yummyfajitas 16y ago
    There might have been economic barriers, but they seem to be falling. "Ethnically, 67 percent of whites reported home broadband; English-speaking Hispanics reported 66 percent; and blacks reported 56 percent." http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2367687,00.asp http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2367687,00.asp African Americans use the mobile internet more than whites. http://www.blackweb20.com/2010/09/23/pew-report-african-americans-outpace-whites-in-mobile-phone-app-usage/ http://www.blackweb20.com/2010/09/23/pew-report-african-amer... So it looks like to resolve this issue, all we need to do is let current trends continue.
galactus 16y ago
> "are things in the USA really so bad that it matters what color your skin is Gees, do you really believe race does not matter in europe?
true_religion 16y ago
> Are things in the USA really so bad that it matters what color your skin is? Isn't tech a business of ideas anyway? Yes, things are so bad. And it must be more than "European" naiveté if you don't believe that people naturally discriminate for people who look like them, or believe the same things as they do. Its the nature of the human beast to not be rational. > Isn't tech a business of ideas anyway? Ah, but now that you mention it... most of us are hiding our faces (and ethnicities) behind our websites copy. So even a B2C company on the internet doesn't have to worry about stereotypes harming their first impressions. Look at Justin.tv, just how many of Michael Seibel's[1] customers and clients do you think know that he is black? [1] http://www.blackenterprise.com/2010/08/28/40-next-michael-seibel/ http://www.blackenterprise.com/2010/08/28/40-next-michael-se...
- Udo 16y ago
  > people naturally discriminate for people who look like them Do they really, naturally? I don't think that many people are walking around, constantly repeating an inner mantra like "I'm a middle-aged white male", always comparing everyone against what they themselves look like in the mirror? Who does that? > Its the nature of the human beast to not be rational. It's my experience that most humans only think like "beasts" if they have been conditioned to do so. It's not like we have to force ourselves to be rational all the time, is it? Being somewhat rational, friendly and compassionate should be the default position. > Ah, but now that you mention it... most of us are hiding our faces (and ethnicities) behind our websites copy. That's true, and I'm happy about this option. I certainly wouldn't have such a great time on the net if people could actually hear or see me. But being black is not the same as being ugly. > just how many of Michael Seibel's[1] customers and clients do you think know that he is black How many care?
  - true_religion 16y ago
    > Do they really, naturally? I don't think that many people are walking around, constantly repeating an inner mantra like "I'm a white middle-aged male", always comparing everyone against what they themselves look like in the mirror? Who does that? The term "naturally" implies that it is an automatic function (e.g. breathing is natural). Did you not realize this or are you intentionally leaping to the straw-man argument? > It's my experience that most humans are only thinking like "beasts" if they have been conditioned to do so. I didn't mean "beast" in any bad sense. I simply meant that human beings are evolved creatures, hormonal, emotional, and often instinctive in their approach to social situations. We are not a rational abstraction. We don't have to 'force' ourselves to be rational all the time, because mostly we aren't rational and rationality would be the long method of coming to the same conclusions. The typical person doesn't have to rationally process every quirk of someones facial or body language to decide on what emotion is expressed---that would take forever. Instead we have mental shortcuts built into our psyche which while are irrational, are also usually correct. When it comes to issues like racism, it is a case of our natural instinct being wrong instead of right for a change. Yes some people are ever curious about the "other", but this isn't the norm. For further discussion, can anyone find a copy of this article ( http://dlib.eastview.com/browse/doc/12134981 http://dlib.eastview.com/browse/doc/12134981 ) outside the Paywall so everyone can see it?
elliottcarlson 16y ago
Sadly, it's more a case of opportunity. With the states being such a wide spectrum of financial statuses, employment rates and educational opportunities, there are wide disconnects on areas where the chance of being properly introduced and educated with technology exist. It really comes down to where you are growing up and the way that local government and community are perceived - and sadly most of the time so called minority groups are not extended the same chances as other groups. That does not mean there aren't black developers (I've worked with and known quite a few) - but the counts are a lot lower than other races.
malux85 16y ago
I agree .. it doesn't matter what color your skin is, or whatever minority group you are from, what matters are your choices, specifically how you spend your precious, precious time. I'm gay, and am bootstrapping my own startup. I have never wondered how many other startup founders are gay .. because that's not what it's about! Focus man
- nickbp 16y ago
  Nitpick: You can hide that fact when its inconvenient. I've found it rarely even comes up, unless you're talking about family with coworkers or something, and by that point you're probably already hired/funded/'in' and will have already overcome any potential stereotypes that someone might otherwise have had about you.
  - malux85 16y ago
    Yes, you're right ... I did think that after I posted :)

by Udo 16y ago

eengstrom 16y ago

I am almost 40. I have been in the IT world actively since 1984 here in Berkeley/San Francisco/Silicon Valley. I have worked in big corporate, nationally and internationally. I have worked with fewer than 10 black men and women in a technical role in my entire career; spanning hundreds of teams and nearly a hundred customers and employers. It matters because opportunity and outcomes aren't equal. The problem isn't purely the IT scene, but one of the greatest challenges the United States faces.

rick888 16y ago
I don't think it's anything we need to "fix". Racism is still around to a small degree, but It's not what's keeping black men and women out of IT. It's culture. The culture needs to change for the problem to go away (if it should be considered a problem) and no amount of money and government intervention is going to change it. Why aren't there more male nurses? Why aren't there more female mechanics? I also don't know where you are working, but I've only worked on 10 teams (I'm in software development) and there were at least a few black guys on each of my teams. But, I tend not to look at color. I look at the person.

_delirium 16y ago

It definitely matters in Europe, possibly moreso than in the USA, at least in the circles I've been in (I'm white myself, so this is mostly from observation and friends). In Denmark at least, there is a lot of awkwardness around race, and it certainly isn't the case that non-white people generally feel comfortable in groups where they're the only non-white person (even worse if everyone else is not only white, but specifically of Scandinavian ethnic heritage, which emphasizes the not-like-me-ness even more). I'm not sure of the exact reasons, or how much is actual racism, but there is definitely a vague sense of weirdness/discomfort.

Udo 16y ago
That's interesting. I'm from Germany myself, and I'm convinced it's the most unfriendly "western" country ever. There is certainly a lot of racism here, but it generally happens in socially and economically compromised regions with low unemployment, and then it's usually directed toward the Turks (because "they took our jooooooobs"). Not that there are many black people in Germany to begin with, but I worked with a lot of people from different ethnicities over the years and I always got the impression that we're all being treated equally (shitty).
- wheels 16y ago
  That's a fairly typical German viewpoint. It's something that caught me a bit off guard when I moved to Germany 9 years ago. Germans have a real aversion to noticing their own racism, no doubt that's a product of cultural baggage, but racism is pretty rampant in Germany and permeates all levels of society. A few of questions to suss things out a bit: What would you or your friends parents think if you announced your engagement to a Turkish girl / guy? If in most of society racism isn't problematic, what do you think the chances of an ethnically Turkish chancellor being elected are? Why are people whose grandparents immigrated to Germany still commonly referred to as foreigners?
  - Udo 16y ago
    > What would you or your friends parents think if you announced your engagement to a Turkish girl / guy? I have been in a relationship with a Turkish girl for eight years, dude. Everyone was OK with it. Not once did anyone say anything about it. You know what? It was just fine. > That's a fairly typical German viewpoint Did you just assert that I'm a "fairly typical" German racist? If you knew me at all you wouldn't accuse me of painting Germany in an overly positive light. I hate it here.
    - wheels 16y ago
      Sorry, no, my intent was not at all to paint you as being racist. What I meant as "typically German" is that most Germans, even those who are not particularly racist themselves, have something of a blind-spot for noticing the depth of racism within German society. And sure, there are families where race is a non-issue. I could list examples as well of where I've seen things go the other way, but that's side-stepping my point: surely you'd agree that in many, many families it would be an issue?

prime0196 16y ago

It really doesn't matter to me. I just wish more blacks would realize the power of programming and the opportunities it could potentially provide.

AlexC04 16y ago
Maybe there's an economic barrier to that realization? Adults who realize the power of programming were likely children with access to a computer growing up. In Malcolm Gladwell's "Outliers" he tells the story of Bill Gates and Bill Joy - two prolific programmers. The key similarity between them was their unfettered access to a computer growing up. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_inequality_in_the_United_States#Race_and_gender_disparities http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_inequality_in_the_United... Indicates that US Blacks earn less on average. Perhaps a good number of black kids don't have a computer to spend the required time needed to realize the power. Perhaps donating your old computer to inner-city and after school programs would help a kid realize that. Wishing won't do anything, but if you've got computers "lying around" that you were going to get rid of, there are programs that distribute them to people who could use them. Google turned up: http://www.computerswithcauses.org/ http://www.computerswithcauses.org/
- yummyfajitas 16y ago
  There might have been economic barriers, but they seem to be falling. "Ethnically, 67 percent of whites reported home broadband; English-speaking Hispanics reported 66 percent; and blacks reported 56 percent." http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2367687,00.asp http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2367687,00.asp African Americans use the mobile internet more than whites. http://www.blackweb20.com/2010/09/23/pew-report-african-americans-outpace-whites-in-mobile-phone-app-usage/ http://www.blackweb20.com/2010/09/23/pew-report-african-amer... So it looks like to resolve this issue, all we need to do is let current trends continue.

galactus 16y ago

> "are things in the USA really so bad that it matters what color your skin is Gees, do you really believe race does not matter in europe?

true_religion 16y ago

> Are things in the USA really so bad that it matters what color your skin is? Isn't tech a business of ideas anyway? Yes, things are so bad. And it must be more than "European" naiveté if you don't believe that people naturally discriminate for people who look like them, or believe the same things as they do. Its the nature of the human beast to not be rational. > Isn't tech a business of ideas anyway? Ah, but now that you mention it... most of us are hiding our faces (and ethnicities) behind our websites copy. So even a B2C company on the internet doesn't have to worry about stereotypes harming their first impressions. Look at Justin.tv, just how many of Michael Seibel's[1] customers and clients do you think know that he is black? [1] http://www.blackenterprise.com/2010/08/28/40-next-michael-seibel/ http://www.blackenterprise.com/2010/08/28/40-next-michael-se...

Udo 16y ago
> people naturally discriminate for people who look like them Do they really, naturally? I don't think that many people are walking around, constantly repeating an inner mantra like "I'm a middle-aged white male", always comparing everyone against what they themselves look like in the mirror? Who does that? > Its the nature of the human beast to not be rational. It's my experience that most humans only think like "beasts" if they have been conditioned to do so. It's not like we have to force ourselves to be rational all the time, is it? Being somewhat rational, friendly and compassionate should be the default position. > Ah, but now that you mention it... most of us are hiding our faces (and ethnicities) behind our websites copy. That's true, and I'm happy about this option. I certainly wouldn't have such a great time on the net if people could actually hear or see me. But being black is not the same as being ugly. > just how many of Michael Seibel's[1] customers and clients do you think know that he is black How many care?
- true_religion 16y ago
  > Do they really, naturally? I don't think that many people are walking around, constantly repeating an inner mantra like "I'm a white middle-aged male", always comparing everyone against what they themselves look like in the mirror? Who does that? The term "naturally" implies that it is an automatic function (e.g. breathing is natural). Did you not realize this or are you intentionally leaping to the straw-man argument? > It's my experience that most humans are only thinking like "beasts" if they have been conditioned to do so. I didn't mean "beast" in any bad sense. I simply meant that human beings are evolved creatures, hormonal, emotional, and often instinctive in their approach to social situations. We are not a rational abstraction. We don't have to 'force' ourselves to be rational all the time, because mostly we aren't rational and rationality would be the long method of coming to the same conclusions. The typical person doesn't have to rationally process every quirk of someones facial or body language to decide on what emotion is expressed---that would take forever. Instead we have mental shortcuts built into our psyche which while are irrational, are also usually correct. When it comes to issues like racism, it is a case of our natural instinct being wrong instead of right for a change. Yes some people are ever curious about the "other", but this isn't the norm. For further discussion, can anyone find a copy of this article ( http://dlib.eastview.com/browse/doc/12134981 http://dlib.eastview.com/browse/doc/12134981 ) outside the Paywall so everyone can see it?

elliottcarlson 16y ago

Sadly, it's more a case of opportunity. With the states being such a wide spectrum of financial statuses, employment rates and educational opportunities, there are wide disconnects on areas where the chance of being properly introduced and educated with technology exist. It really comes down to where you are growing up and the way that local government and community are perceived - and sadly most of the time so called minority groups are not extended the same chances as other groups. That does not mean there aren't black developers (I've worked with and known quite a few) - but the counts are a lot lower than other races.

malux85 16y ago

I agree .. it doesn't matter what color your skin is, or whatever minority group you are from, what matters are your choices, specifically how you spend your precious, precious time. I'm gay, and am bootstrapping my own startup. I have never wondered how many other startup founders are gay .. because that's not what it's about! Focus man

nickbp 16y ago
Nitpick: You can hide that fact when its inconvenient. I've found it rarely even comes up, unless you're talking about family with coworkers or something, and by that point you're probably already hired/funded/'in' and will have already overcome any potential stereotypes that someone might otherwise have had about you.
- malux85 16y ago
  Yes, you're right ... I did think that after I posted :)