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Spoken as a software professional and computer scientist. Human beings rely on signals to communicate efficiently, especially in larger groups. In the absence

Spoken as a software professional and computer scientist. Human beings rely on signals to communicate efficiently, especially in larger groups. In the absence of well defined signals people will use what they have on hand and the results will be arbitrary at best and unhelpful in all likelihood due to propensity for misinterpretation and misrepresentation, especially since they may rely on inegalitarian mechanisms like gender or hair style or age or other intrinsic characteristics which may be gamed or are inaccessible to all. By dismissing corporate culture so egregiously we have also done away with most established signalling mechanisms without offering any new substitutes. The definition of dressing up in this context is in reference to establishing and manifesting visible and unambiguous signalling cues for such things as rank, status, team membership, privilege or clearance and other relevant metrics. Since we're so sensitive to traditional methods it's difficult to convince anyone to put on a shirt and tie and quit acting like children but nobody has offered any better alternative than a printed T which in my professional experience and opinion is an all-too-naive solution that fails the military grade requirements after which we've modelled our private corporations. Imagine you're a new member on a team looking around the floor for someone with an admin override. You need to ask six people before you get referred to Joe who has the keys to production. If Joe had a stripe on his jacket you'd be able to tell right away.

dnh44 6y ago
Thanks for going into detail regarding your "wildly unpopular" opinion although I suspect it isn't quite so unpopular outside California. I can understand the value in certain circumstances of having a dress code or uniform, particularly with things like police, emergency, and military organisations. Soccer is also a good example. The goalkeepers have different uniforms and the captain wears an armband. So certainly uniforms can provide a functional purpose. But I can't quite see how wearing a tie fits into this. I think that in a lot of environments clothing is used and has been used historically to signal superiority at a time when social rank was deeply tied to function. Consider in medieval times (and later) that it was normal for people to spend a third of their yearly income on clothing to distinguish themselves from the peasants, and there were all sorts of laws to make sure people dressed according to their position. Everyone knew their place and this order was enforced with violence. So I don't think dressing up really helps to make visual signalling more egalitarian, if anything I think we're conditioned to equate appearance with ability. So I think we would do a whole lot better as a society if everyone made an effort to not judge or rank people according to visual characteristics. This is what makes and made places like HN, usenet, and BBS's so great. There is no visual signalling and all you have to go by are what people write. I believe that dressing down in tech is now sometimes a way for the tech industry to signal its superiority over other industries. It's a declaration of "we don't have to follow your primitive rules and customs anymore." Western society has moved away from that level of formality except in the case of very special occasions. It's also perfectly normal to not shave everyday now. Both my father and grandfather shave nearly everyday because they've been conditioned to feel scruffy if they don't. I can understand how it's important for a sales team to look sharp, because they can use people's conditioning against them to manipulate perception in order to influence customers. The nice suits and shoes are a tool. But I don't think this sort of image management has any positive value amongst a team of engineers working together to build something. What positive effect would wearing a suit and tie have over t-shirt and jeans? I ask that sincerely rather than rhetorically. And is that value high enough where it would be worthwhile for the corporation to absorb the monetary and time costs related to it rather than forcing the employee to absorb the costs?
- artsyca 6y ago
  A very generous and thoughtfully worded reply. Very grateful to your kind consideration of this subject. It's incredibly complex and a lot of the evidence is circumstantial and layers of cultural cruft have certainly confused things but I'll say this -- People in the past didn't do things because they were stupid simpletons relegated to history books, they did a lot of things for real reasons and if we were born in those days we'd probably see the truth in spending a third of our income on clothing befitting our rank. We ought to know by now the difference between an intractable argument and one we just can't understand yet, we seem to believe just because we can't understand something it can't be understood. In my view people back then were very much worse off and struggling much more between the throes of life and death with sincere passion. Having good clothes actually somehow conferred an advantage to the wearer that went way beyond societal perception or even shallow cultural biases to the core of their ability to live day to day. You'd think we would've invented fast fashion earlier, but we've been wearing all sorts of costumes for millennia. In the modern age our vehicles and electronic devices have taken over the cultural status symbolism perhaps but we've let our clothing sense lapse dreadfully into what I consider neo-renaissance pomp mixed with dark ages peasantry. Anyway tl;dr - people in the past were struggling to survive yet still found some reason to invest a lot of their income in clothing.. Maybe there is something we've missed?
  - dnh44 6y ago
    A few times a year I attend events where wearing a suit is expected. I quite like wearing suits occasionally because I feel good wearing them. Once I intentionally underdressed quite severely for the event. I can say that I don't think I would have felt more uncomfortable if I had been naked. It was quite a memorable experience. I've practiced that a few more times until I stopped feeling uncomfortable just because I took it as a personal flaw that clothing could make me feel either bad or good. Anyway for sure I've missed something I just can't seem to figure out what exactly.

dnh44 6y ago

Thanks for going into detail regarding your "wildly unpopular" opinion although I suspect it isn't quite so unpopular outside California. I can understand the value in certain circumstances of having a dress code or uniform, particularly with things like police, emergency, and military organisations. Soccer is also a good example. The goalkeepers have different uniforms and the captain wears an armband. So certainly uniforms can provide a functional purpose. But I can't quite see how wearing a tie fits into this. I think that in a lot of environments clothing is used and has been used historically to signal superiority at a time when social rank was deeply tied to function. Consider in medieval times (and later) that it was normal for people to spend a third of their yearly income on clothing to distinguish themselves from the peasants, and there were all sorts of laws to make sure people dressed according to their position. Everyone knew their place and this order was enforced with violence. So I don't think dressing up really helps to make visual signalling more egalitarian, if anything I think we're conditioned to equate appearance with ability. So I think we would do a whole lot better as a society if everyone made an effort to not judge or rank people according to visual characteristics. This is what makes and made places like HN, usenet, and BBS's so great. There is no visual signalling and all you have to go by are what people write. I believe that dressing down in tech is now sometimes a way for the tech industry to signal its superiority over other industries. It's a declaration of "we don't have to follow your primitive rules and customs anymore." Western society has moved away from that level of formality except in the case of very special occasions. It's also perfectly normal to not shave everyday now. Both my father and grandfather shave nearly everyday because they've been conditioned to feel scruffy if they don't. I can understand how it's important for a sales team to look sharp, because they can use people's conditioning against them to manipulate perception in order to influence customers. The nice suits and shoes are a tool. But I don't think this sort of image management has any positive value amongst a team of engineers working together to build something. What positive effect would wearing a suit and tie have over t-shirt and jeans? I ask that sincerely rather than rhetorically. And is that value high enough where it would be worthwhile for the corporation to absorb the monetary and time costs related to it rather than forcing the employee to absorb the costs?

artsyca 6y ago
A very generous and thoughtfully worded reply. Very grateful to your kind consideration of this subject. It's incredibly complex and a lot of the evidence is circumstantial and layers of cultural cruft have certainly confused things but I'll say this -- People in the past didn't do things because they were stupid simpletons relegated to history books, they did a lot of things for real reasons and if we were born in those days we'd probably see the truth in spending a third of our income on clothing befitting our rank. We ought to know by now the difference between an intractable argument and one we just can't understand yet, we seem to believe just because we can't understand something it can't be understood. In my view people back then were very much worse off and struggling much more between the throes of life and death with sincere passion. Having good clothes actually somehow conferred an advantage to the wearer that went way beyond societal perception or even shallow cultural biases to the core of their ability to live day to day. You'd think we would've invented fast fashion earlier, but we've been wearing all sorts of costumes for millennia. In the modern age our vehicles and electronic devices have taken over the cultural status symbolism perhaps but we've let our clothing sense lapse dreadfully into what I consider neo-renaissance pomp mixed with dark ages peasantry. Anyway tl;dr - people in the past were struggling to survive yet still found some reason to invest a lot of their income in clothing.. Maybe there is something we've missed?
- dnh44 6y ago
  A few times a year I attend events where wearing a suit is expected. I quite like wearing suits occasionally because I feel good wearing them. Once I intentionally underdressed quite severely for the event. I can say that I don't think I would have felt more uncomfortable if I had been naked. It was quite a memorable experience. I've practiced that a few more times until I stopped feeling uncomfortable just because I took it as a personal flaw that clothing could make me feel either bad or good. Anyway for sure I've missed something I just can't seem to figure out what exactly.