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> Power struggle between teachers and students via... Uh, did I say that, or were you intuiting? Not exactly a learner's approach :D > Plagiarizing some work

> Power struggle between teachers and students via... Uh, did I say that, or were you intuiting? Not exactly a learner's approach :D > Plagiarizing some work doesn't really hurt the work, it hurts you. Except when it benefits you? This is the subjective perception I was talking about. That their mindset differs does not instantly make them wrong, especially when you can throw a dime out the window and hit an educated professional who falls short of the best (heaven forbid the "perfect") ethical standard. Ethics is, and should be, hard. If you put words into my mouth, is your position ethical? This stuff requires the ability to stick around, listen, learn, and stay in the game, moreso if you plan to claim the high ground.

infogulch 6y ago
This isn't a subjective ethics problem. It's a competence problem. If you can't formulate your own thoughts into a coherent statement (the purpose of learning to write) then you'll be useless to anyone that needs new coherent arguments.
- themodelplumber 6y ago
  That's a bit of an overreach, isn't it, calling my writing incoherent and incompetent? (Edit: Parent clarified that "you" is meant to mean a hypothetical student, not me.) If more information is needed, as was the case here, we can ask questions. That's got nothing to do with author competence. It's not an essay contest. And why assume we know it all, filling in the gaps like that? In a discussion of ethics, this is a qualitative issue to say the least. The concept of competence as you describe it is also very much a vague, subjective concern out of which you've just attempted to carve a covert competence contract. This leaves your blind spot unguarded because you are unknowingly making the discussion focus on you and your own competence level. And this is a big part of why "hyper ethical" subjective ethics people struggle--they assume their view is right and don't ask questions of others.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - infogulch 6y ago
    I haven't said anything about your writing at all. Maybe it wasn't clear enough that I meant "you" as in "someone" or "one". I'm sorry it was possible to misunderstand my general statement as a personal attack. This doesn't have to do with me either -- the market will determine whether any one person is valuable enough to employ (or promote). My only claims are that being able to write makes one more valuable, and that plagiarizing assignments at school fails to teach one to write.
    - themodelplumber 6y ago
      Ah, I see what you mean, that it was not meant to refer to my level of competence. :) I did indeed read the "you" wrong. Thank you for the clarification.
  - austincheney 6y ago
    It’s not an overreach. The competence is a product of originality and independence. > And this is a big part of why "hyper ethical" subjective ethics people struggle--they assume their view is right and don't ask questions of others. That is itself quite the assumption.
    - themodelplumber 6y ago
      Not an assumption at all. That's from my subjective past experience, from having conducted qualitative research experiences in this area as I interviewed and taught students. I shared that experience in my original reply and would love for anyone else to do the same, referring us to their past experiences even anecdotally, rather than forecasting woe via subjective intuition.
      - austincheney 6y ago
        My real world experience has taught me many developers cannot write (code or prose) and would rather jump in front of a bus than write their own original code. The next time I am tasked with candidate selection I will use an essay assignment as the first round of filtering.
renewiltord 6y ago
> Uh, did I say that, or were you intuiting? What is it with this everywhere on HN these days where people assume every response someone makes is a refutation? It's a conversation, dude. People will take it places. Sometimes people will build on ideas you mention. Other times people will take an incident and draw their own conclusions. Other times people will draw on a similar incident or talk about a related concept. I'll accept my off-topic downvotes since that is fair but this is so frustrating.
- themodelplumber 6y ago
  Hmm, I think it's only fair that we zoom in a bit from "everyone on HN complaints" to the details in question. Otherwise it makes it appear that you want to avoid discussing details in question which directly flow into the qualitative nature of this discussion. I just re-read what you wrote. If you're saying your response was not a refutation, given that you wrote "is not best characterized as," I think it's pretty clear as to why that could be misunderstood, to say the least. It seems clear to me that you were replying in direct disagreement and also projecting words I never said right into your reasoning. And further, it now seems as if you're claiming that I'm being assumptive. This is just compounding, not helping. I think specifics are important here because it's unfortunately common for people to attempt to sweep pesky details under their subjective-ethical rug in the name of [hand wave]. Since this is an ethics discussion some due concern to communicating ethically seems reasonable to expect. If that's frustrating, maybe you can at least see the frustration on both sides.

infogulch 6y ago

This isn't a subjective ethics problem. It's a competence problem. If you can't formulate your own thoughts into a coherent statement (the purpose of learning to write) then you'll be useless to anyone that needs new coherent arguments.

themodelplumber 6y ago
That's a bit of an overreach, isn't it, calling my writing incoherent and incompetent? (Edit: Parent clarified that "you" is meant to mean a hypothetical student, not me.) If more information is needed, as was the case here, we can ask questions. That's got nothing to do with author competence. It's not an essay contest. And why assume we know it all, filling in the gaps like that? In a discussion of ethics, this is a qualitative issue to say the least. The concept of competence as you describe it is also very much a vague, subjective concern out of which you've just attempted to carve a covert competence contract. This leaves your blind spot unguarded because you are unknowingly making the discussion focus on you and your own competence level. And this is a big part of why "hyper ethical" subjective ethics people struggle--they assume their view is right and don't ask questions of others.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- infogulch 6y ago
  I haven't said anything about your writing at all. Maybe it wasn't clear enough that I meant "you" as in "someone" or "one". I'm sorry it was possible to misunderstand my general statement as a personal attack. This doesn't have to do with me either -- the market will determine whether any one person is valuable enough to employ (or promote). My only claims are that being able to write makes one more valuable, and that plagiarizing assignments at school fails to teach one to write.
  - themodelplumber 6y ago
    Ah, I see what you mean, that it was not meant to refer to my level of competence. :) I did indeed read the "you" wrong. Thank you for the clarification.
- austincheney 6y ago
  It’s not an overreach. The competence is a product of originality and independence. > And this is a big part of why "hyper ethical" subjective ethics people struggle--they assume their view is right and don't ask questions of others. That is itself quite the assumption.
  - themodelplumber 6y ago
    Not an assumption at all. That's from my subjective past experience, from having conducted qualitative research experiences in this area as I interviewed and taught students. I shared that experience in my original reply and would love for anyone else to do the same, referring us to their past experiences even anecdotally, rather than forecasting woe via subjective intuition.
    - austincheney 6y ago
      My real world experience has taught me many developers cannot write (code or prose) and would rather jump in front of a bus than write their own original code. The next time I am tasked with candidate selection I will use an essay assignment as the first round of filtering.

renewiltord 6y ago

> Uh, did I say that, or were you intuiting? What is it with this everywhere on HN these days where people assume every response someone makes is a refutation? It's a conversation, dude. People will take it places. Sometimes people will build on ideas you mention. Other times people will take an incident and draw their own conclusions. Other times people will draw on a similar incident or talk about a related concept. I'll accept my off-topic downvotes since that is fair but this is so frustrating.

themodelplumber 6y ago
Hmm, I think it's only fair that we zoom in a bit from "everyone on HN complaints" to the details in question. Otherwise it makes it appear that you want to avoid discussing details in question which directly flow into the qualitative nature of this discussion. I just re-read what you wrote. If you're saying your response was not a refutation, given that you wrote "is not best characterized as," I think it's pretty clear as to why that could be misunderstood, to say the least. It seems clear to me that you were replying in direct disagreement and also projecting words I never said right into your reasoning. And further, it now seems as if you're claiming that I'm being assumptive. This is just compounding, not helping. I think specifics are important here because it's unfortunately common for people to attempt to sweep pesky details under their subjective-ethical rug in the name of [hand wave]. Since this is an ethics discussion some due concern to communicating ethically seems reasonable to expect. If that's frustrating, maybe you can at least see the frustration on both sides.