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How we dress at work makes way more of a difference than we understand. The main reason startup culture sucks people up and spits out their bones is because we

How we dress at work makes way more of a difference than we understand. The main reason startup culture sucks people up and spits out their bones is because we've taken the worst parts of corporacy and left all the best ones to rot. If a manager doesn't understand the importance of dressing up at least a few days a week he doesn't deserve the responsibility and most of the problems in this corporate world are down to young men who haven't discovered themselves but are willing to sacrifice all their energies in proving they're the best at something they know very little about.

sethammons 6y ago
I fully disagree with dressing up at work as being important. I fully agree that many of our problems at work stem from folks trying to prove that they are competent/best at something they are largely ignorant at. Some of these people dress up professionally to help hide their lack of effectiveness. Dressing up for work is value signalling. "oh, a blazer? They are important." When it comes to client interactions, depending on the culture of the industry, being more professionally dressed is important. First impressions and all that. Self-confidence can be boosted by your appearance and that can help when interacting with folks. I've seen it work for folks that talk on the phone to customers. The other thing that helps boost confidence? Actually knowing what you are talking about :) I may not trust an investment representative as much if they are in their sweat pants compared to a suit. But for knowledge workers, I think there is a boon to being comfortable.
- artsyca 6y ago
  Bro I appreciate your reply and I want to remind you this is a wildly unpopular opinions thread so I'd encourage you to try to look at things from a different angle than playing the "I disagree" card which carries no merit here whatsoever. As a hint I'd like to convey that the blazer is actually a dress down apparel compared to the outfits it replaced and the suit is designed as the ultimate comfort and convenience garment so if you can't feel comfortable in a suit and assume therefore it's impossible to for anyone to be comfortable in one, maybe you just haven't found the right tailor you know? Which goes to my point that people don't understand what dressing up even means let alone how to do it.
  - flukus 6y ago
    > if you can't feel comfortable in a suit and assume therefore it's impossible to for anyone to be comfortable in one, I don't think you can't be comfortable, I just think they're less comfortable. No one spends a lazy Sunday afternoon on the couch watching TV while wearing a suit, if they were more comfortable than other clothes this would be common. Either way your solution of getting better suits or a tailor is an unnecessary expense I can do without. As far as signalling goes it generally means the opposite of it's intention to me, if I see someone in a suite I'm more likely to think used car salesman, mormon or boss. I'm immediately much more skeptical and defensive because they'll want to sell me something or control me.
    - artsyca 6y ago
      There are advantages for dressing up but you'll never understand them by taking the majority view. Nobody cares what anyone wears at home we're talking comfort at work. And again, a suit is ultimately a dress down garment requiring less care to put on than a track suit. In all this discourse nobody ever bothered to ask what dressing is even defined as and we're supposed to call ourselves software engineers. Another hint: wearing swag is not equivalent to dressing up.
      - flukus 6y ago
        > Nobody cares what anyone wears at home we're talking comfort at work. Comfort is independent of location, the only difference is that at home we prioritize comfort and that translates to not wearing suits. > And again, a suit is ultimately a dress down garment requiring less care to put on than a track suit. In what world? Track pants you just pull on and maybe tie up if there's some weight in your pockets, dress pants you have to pull on zip/button up and put a belt on. Some with the upper half, it's easier to pull on a T shirt than button one up. Neither are hardly arduous (hence my surprise that some people take "pride in their appearance") but a suit is definitely not the easiest option. > In all this discourse nobody ever bothered to ask what dressing is even defined as and we're supposed to call ourselves software engineers. Because we all have a functional shared understanding of what it means, if you have a definition that differs or constrains this general understanding then it would be much more useful to state it rather than vague hints.
artsyca 6y ago
Spoken as a software professional and computer scientist. Human beings rely on signals to communicate efficiently, especially in larger groups. In the absence of well defined signals people will use what they have on hand and the results will be arbitrary at best and unhelpful in all likelihood due to propensity for misinterpretation and misrepresentation, especially since they may rely on inegalitarian mechanisms like gender or hair style or age or other intrinsic characteristics which may be gamed or are inaccessible to all. By dismissing corporate culture so egregiously we have also done away with most established signalling mechanisms without offering any new substitutes. The definition of dressing up in this context is in reference to establishing and manifesting visible and unambiguous signalling cues for such things as rank, status, team membership, privilege or clearance and other relevant metrics. Since we're so sensitive to traditional methods it's difficult to convince anyone to put on a shirt and tie and quit acting like children but nobody has offered any better alternative than a printed T which in my professional experience and opinion is an all-too-naive solution that fails the military grade requirements after which we've modelled our private corporations. Imagine you're a new member on a team looking around the floor for someone with an admin override. You need to ask six people before you get referred to Joe who has the keys to production. If Joe had a stripe on his jacket you'd be able to tell right away.
- dnh44 6y ago
  Thanks for going into detail regarding your "wildly unpopular" opinion although I suspect it isn't quite so unpopular outside California. I can understand the value in certain circumstances of having a dress code or uniform, particularly with things like police, emergency, and military organisations. Soccer is also a good example. The goalkeepers have different uniforms and the captain wears an armband. So certainly uniforms can provide a functional purpose. But I can't quite see how wearing a tie fits into this. I think that in a lot of environments clothing is used and has been used historically to signal superiority at a time when social rank was deeply tied to function. Consider in medieval times (and later) that it was normal for people to spend a third of their yearly income on clothing to distinguish themselves from the peasants, and there were all sorts of laws to make sure people dressed according to their position. Everyone knew their place and this order was enforced with violence. So I don't think dressing up really helps to make visual signalling more egalitarian, if anything I think we're conditioned to equate appearance with ability. So I think we would do a whole lot better as a society if everyone made an effort to not judge or rank people according to visual characteristics. This is what makes and made places like HN, usenet, and BBS's so great. There is no visual signalling and all you have to go by are what people write. I believe that dressing down in tech is now sometimes a way for the tech industry to signal its superiority over other industries. It's a declaration of "we don't have to follow your primitive rules and customs anymore." Western society has moved away from that level of formality except in the case of very special occasions. It's also perfectly normal to not shave everyday now. Both my father and grandfather shave nearly everyday because they've been conditioned to feel scruffy if they don't. I can understand how it's important for a sales team to look sharp, because they can use people's conditioning against them to manipulate perception in order to influence customers. The nice suits and shoes are a tool. But I don't think this sort of image management has any positive value amongst a team of engineers working together to build something. What positive effect would wearing a suit and tie have over t-shirt and jeans? I ask that sincerely rather than rhetorically. And is that value high enough where it would be worthwhile for the corporation to absorb the monetary and time costs related to it rather than forcing the employee to absorb the costs?

sethammons 6y ago

I fully disagree with dressing up at work as being important. I fully agree that many of our problems at work stem from folks trying to prove that they are competent/best at something they are largely ignorant at. Some of these people dress up professionally to help hide their lack of effectiveness. Dressing up for work is value signalling. "oh, a blazer? They are important." When it comes to client interactions, depending on the culture of the industry, being more professionally dressed is important. First impressions and all that. Self-confidence can be boosted by your appearance and that can help when interacting with folks. I've seen it work for folks that talk on the phone to customers. The other thing that helps boost confidence? Actually knowing what you are talking about :) I may not trust an investment representative as much if they are in their sweat pants compared to a suit. But for knowledge workers, I think there is a boon to being comfortable.

artsyca 6y ago
Bro I appreciate your reply and I want to remind you this is a wildly unpopular opinions thread so I'd encourage you to try to look at things from a different angle than playing the "I disagree" card which carries no merit here whatsoever. As a hint I'd like to convey that the blazer is actually a dress down apparel compared to the outfits it replaced and the suit is designed as the ultimate comfort and convenience garment so if you can't feel comfortable in a suit and assume therefore it's impossible to for anyone to be comfortable in one, maybe you just haven't found the right tailor you know? Which goes to my point that people don't understand what dressing up even means let alone how to do it.
- flukus 6y ago
  > if you can't feel comfortable in a suit and assume therefore it's impossible to for anyone to be comfortable in one, I don't think you can't be comfortable, I just think they're less comfortable. No one spends a lazy Sunday afternoon on the couch watching TV while wearing a suit, if they were more comfortable than other clothes this would be common. Either way your solution of getting better suits or a tailor is an unnecessary expense I can do without. As far as signalling goes it generally means the opposite of it's intention to me, if I see someone in a suite I'm more likely to think used car salesman, mormon or boss. I'm immediately much more skeptical and defensive because they'll want to sell me something or control me.
  - artsyca 6y ago
    There are advantages for dressing up but you'll never understand them by taking the majority view. Nobody cares what anyone wears at home we're talking comfort at work. And again, a suit is ultimately a dress down garment requiring less care to put on than a track suit. In all this discourse nobody ever bothered to ask what dressing is even defined as and we're supposed to call ourselves software engineers. Another hint: wearing swag is not equivalent to dressing up.
    - flukus 6y ago
      > Nobody cares what anyone wears at home we're talking comfort at work. Comfort is independent of location, the only difference is that at home we prioritize comfort and that translates to not wearing suits. > And again, a suit is ultimately a dress down garment requiring less care to put on than a track suit. In what world? Track pants you just pull on and maybe tie up if there's some weight in your pockets, dress pants you have to pull on zip/button up and put a belt on. Some with the upper half, it's easier to pull on a T shirt than button one up. Neither are hardly arduous (hence my surprise that some people take "pride in their appearance") but a suit is definitely not the easiest option. > In all this discourse nobody ever bothered to ask what dressing is even defined as and we're supposed to call ourselves software engineers. Because we all have a functional shared understanding of what it means, if you have a definition that differs or constrains this general understanding then it would be much more useful to state it rather than vague hints.

artsyca 6y ago

Spoken as a software professional and computer scientist. Human beings rely on signals to communicate efficiently, especially in larger groups. In the absence of well defined signals people will use what they have on hand and the results will be arbitrary at best and unhelpful in all likelihood due to propensity for misinterpretation and misrepresentation, especially since they may rely on inegalitarian mechanisms like gender or hair style or age or other intrinsic characteristics which may be gamed or are inaccessible to all. By dismissing corporate culture so egregiously we have also done away with most established signalling mechanisms without offering any new substitutes. The definition of dressing up in this context is in reference to establishing and manifesting visible and unambiguous signalling cues for such things as rank, status, team membership, privilege or clearance and other relevant metrics. Since we're so sensitive to traditional methods it's difficult to convince anyone to put on a shirt and tie and quit acting like children but nobody has offered any better alternative than a printed T which in my professional experience and opinion is an all-too-naive solution that fails the military grade requirements after which we've modelled our private corporations. Imagine you're a new member on a team looking around the floor for someone with an admin override. You need to ask six people before you get referred to Joe who has the keys to production. If Joe had a stripe on his jacket you'd be able to tell right away.

dnh44 6y ago
Thanks for going into detail regarding your "wildly unpopular" opinion although I suspect it isn't quite so unpopular outside California. I can understand the value in certain circumstances of having a dress code or uniform, particularly with things like police, emergency, and military organisations. Soccer is also a good example. The goalkeepers have different uniforms and the captain wears an armband. So certainly uniforms can provide a functional purpose. But I can't quite see how wearing a tie fits into this. I think that in a lot of environments clothing is used and has been used historically to signal superiority at a time when social rank was deeply tied to function. Consider in medieval times (and later) that it was normal for people to spend a third of their yearly income on clothing to distinguish themselves from the peasants, and there were all sorts of laws to make sure people dressed according to their position. Everyone knew their place and this order was enforced with violence. So I don't think dressing up really helps to make visual signalling more egalitarian, if anything I think we're conditioned to equate appearance with ability. So I think we would do a whole lot better as a society if everyone made an effort to not judge or rank people according to visual characteristics. This is what makes and made places like HN, usenet, and BBS's so great. There is no visual signalling and all you have to go by are what people write. I believe that dressing down in tech is now sometimes a way for the tech industry to signal its superiority over other industries. It's a declaration of "we don't have to follow your primitive rules and customs anymore." Western society has moved away from that level of formality except in the case of very special occasions. It's also perfectly normal to not shave everyday now. Both my father and grandfather shave nearly everyday because they've been conditioned to feel scruffy if they don't. I can understand how it's important for a sales team to look sharp, because they can use people's conditioning against them to manipulate perception in order to influence customers. The nice suits and shoes are a tool. But I don't think this sort of image management has any positive value amongst a team of engineers working together to build something. What positive effect would wearing a suit and tie have over t-shirt and jeans? I ask that sincerely rather than rhetorically. And is that value high enough where it would be worthwhile for the corporation to absorb the monetary and time costs related to it rather than forcing the employee to absorb the costs?