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I'm legitimately surprised this product hasn't ended up with interchangeable battery packs. Super charging is "fast" compared to regular electrical charging, bu

I'm legitimately surprised this product hasn't ended up with interchangeable battery packs. Super charging is "fast" compared to regular electrical charging, but when time is money, it seems like that would be "the" limit that costs sales. Keep in mind a lot of trucks don't sit idle while cargo is unloaded by hand, in many locations they'll just de-couple, pick up outgoing, and be back out of the gate within 10~15 minutes. With recharge downtime of e.g. 20 minutes, they've managed to place themselves into an even smaller niche than they would be already. By the way, Semis are a massive source of pollution and have proportionately terrible Mpg while idle or towing light loads. So this is an area ripe for improvement, and this is an asperational product. I appreciate a big name trying if for no other reason than it might spur innovation from traditional trucking companies. Just because I worry that it isn't viable in the market, doesn't mean I'm not a fan.

reaperducer 6y ago
I'm not going to pretend to be an expert in electric vehicles, or trucking, but it seems that with a 500 mile range, you're getting pretty much to the limit of what a trucker is legally allowed to drive in the United States each day. So maybe recharge time isn't that big a deal, since the drivers aren't supposed to be on the road anyway.
- Jtsummers 6y ago
  As I recall, one of the major initial target markets for this is regional distribution. A 300 or 500 mile range gives you a 130-230 mile radius for distribution (dropping a bit for reserve in case you have to take a detour or just for safety). That's not a bad range, at least on the east coast. The central states and some western states will be harder to cover with those ranges, but feasible for large chunks.
- Someone1234 6y ago
  How much weight is in the trailer for that 500 miles range? If the answer is zero tons then it is completely meaninless. The Tesla site doesn't qualify what 500 miles means. For trucks load-range matters, not empty range.
  - waterhouse 6y ago
    The video says "500-mile range at GVW [gross vehicle weight, I assume] & highway speed", and Musk explicitly says "that's 500-mile range at maximum weight at highway speed, 60 miles an hour". Roughly 06:36 into the video. And on the subject of charging, it claims "400 miles of charge in 30 minutes" around 13:15.
    - hajile 6y ago
      Over 4 years or so, batteries that have never been supercharged are at about 90% capacity rather than 80% for frequently fast charged vehicles. Given the rapid decline of batteries in their final months, that could be equaling an extra couple years of usable life. That's an issue in a car, but a massive deal in a semi where they need much, much larger batteries with much, much larger replacement costs. The real solution here should have been battery exchange contracts. They make facilities to slow-charge batteries and semi's pay per mile or kw he put on the battery. The would be much better for the environment. It would also enable Tesla decreasing the up front cost by moving some of that cost into charging fees to encourage adoption. https://www.geotab.com/blog/ev-battery-health/ https://www.geotab.com/blog/ev-battery-health/
      - SECProto 6y ago
        There are a ton of factors that go into battery degradation, not just speed of charging. Also, it varies dramatically depending on the manufacturer - the 4yr/80-90% doesn't line up with real world data from Tesla: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1270784295733301249?s=19 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1270784295733301249?s=19
- Gibbon1 6y ago
  That was my conclusion a couple of years ago. A truck driver legally has a lot of enforced breaks. There are a max hours they can drive in a day. And a max number of hours per sprint. Which with electronic log books it's hard to cheat on that. And I'm dubious that truck drivers would mind a slightly slower pace as long as it's uniformly enforced. And revamping truck stops to charge trucks seems like something where all the needed technology already exists.
- Sohcahtoa82 6y ago
  > you're getting pretty much to the limit of what a trucker is legally allowed to drive in the United States each day That's why there are multiple drivers. My brother-in-law is a truck driver. Every day, he drives his semi from Portland, OR to Seattle, WA and back. Once he gets back, another driver gets in and does a route. A single driver may have a limit, but the truck itself doesn't.
chooseaname 6y ago
300-500 mile range is cringe-worthy when a dual tank diesel will get you near 2K miles. (And yes, truckers aren't able to do this, but filling up is time). Edit: I'm in the industry and this is one case where time really is money.
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  How does the math change if diesel trucks have to pay for their CO2 emissions?
  - reitzensteinm 6y ago
    Yeah, it would be so nice to have market forces figuring this stuff out. Haphazard subsidies are better than nothing, but I suspect much less than optimal.
chrisco255 6y ago
Truck drivers have to take mandatory breaks every so often. Seems like after driving for 300 - 500 miles, would be a perfect time to recharge while you recharge.
- sgt 6y ago
  In Norway there is a mandatory 45 minute break after 4.5 hours of driving, and you cannot drive for more than 90 hours during a 14 day period.
- devilbunny 6y ago
  As others have pointed out, the driver has to rest. The truck does not. It's an expensive piece of capital equipment that you want to keep on the road at all times until it needs maintenance. This is a good example of where swappable battery packs would actually be useful. The extra weight cost of making it swappable is much smaller as a percentage than it would be for a car, and shipping companies that run regular routes could easily have their own facilities to handle such things.
SigmundA 6y ago
The logistics of interchanging a $100,000 - 10,000lbs battery needs to be considered. Most of the value if the tractor is the battery as is the weight, you aren't just going to swap them out at some random truck stop.
jokit 6y ago
I wonder if it's easier to just rely on the truck recharging to 80% capacity (which would be at least 900 miles with one 30 minute break, according to them), then the issues that might arise in swapping out the batteries. Where I'm sure they could design a method for pretty simple battery swapping, and maybe even in less than half the time, maybe they figured that charging the batteries for the mandated 30 minute break would always be a simpler process that would require much less infrastructure (and maybe no other effort other than the driver's), to accomplish. 900 mile range as "worst case scenario" with a 30 minute break after 500 miles seems like it would be sufficient to me. Even with a second driver, if they mandate 30 minute breaks, a truck will be stopped for 30 minutes. Did I miss how long they suggested it would take to fully recharge?

reaperducer 6y ago

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert in electric vehicles, or trucking, but it seems that with a 500 mile range, you're getting pretty much to the limit of what a trucker is legally allowed to drive in the United States each day. So maybe recharge time isn't that big a deal, since the drivers aren't supposed to be on the road anyway.

Jtsummers 6y ago
As I recall, one of the major initial target markets for this is regional distribution. A 300 or 500 mile range gives you a 130-230 mile radius for distribution (dropping a bit for reserve in case you have to take a detour or just for safety). That's not a bad range, at least on the east coast. The central states and some western states will be harder to cover with those ranges, but feasible for large chunks.
Someone1234 6y ago
How much weight is in the trailer for that 500 miles range? If the answer is zero tons then it is completely meaninless. The Tesla site doesn't qualify what 500 miles means. For trucks load-range matters, not empty range.
- waterhouse 6y ago
  The video says "500-mile range at GVW [gross vehicle weight, I assume] & highway speed", and Musk explicitly says "that's 500-mile range at maximum weight at highway speed, 60 miles an hour". Roughly 06:36 into the video. And on the subject of charging, it claims "400 miles of charge in 30 minutes" around 13:15.
  - hajile 6y ago
    Over 4 years or so, batteries that have never been supercharged are at about 90% capacity rather than 80% for frequently fast charged vehicles. Given the rapid decline of batteries in their final months, that could be equaling an extra couple years of usable life. That's an issue in a car, but a massive deal in a semi where they need much, much larger batteries with much, much larger replacement costs. The real solution here should have been battery exchange contracts. They make facilities to slow-charge batteries and semi's pay per mile or kw he put on the battery. The would be much better for the environment. It would also enable Tesla decreasing the up front cost by moving some of that cost into charging fees to encourage adoption. https://www.geotab.com/blog/ev-battery-health/ https://www.geotab.com/blog/ev-battery-health/
    - SECProto 6y ago
      There are a ton of factors that go into battery degradation, not just speed of charging. Also, it varies dramatically depending on the manufacturer - the 4yr/80-90% doesn't line up with real world data from Tesla: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1270784295733301249?s=19 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1270784295733301249?s=19
Gibbon1 6y ago
That was my conclusion a couple of years ago. A truck driver legally has a lot of enforced breaks. There are a max hours they can drive in a day. And a max number of hours per sprint. Which with electronic log books it's hard to cheat on that. And I'm dubious that truck drivers would mind a slightly slower pace as long as it's uniformly enforced. And revamping truck stops to charge trucks seems like something where all the needed technology already exists.
Sohcahtoa82 6y ago
> you're getting pretty much to the limit of what a trucker is legally allowed to drive in the United States each day That's why there are multiple drivers. My brother-in-law is a truck driver. Every day, he drives his semi from Portland, OR to Seattle, WA and back. Once he gets back, another driver gets in and does a route. A single driver may have a limit, but the truck itself doesn't.

chooseaname 6y ago

300-500 mile range is cringe-worthy when a dual tank diesel will get you near 2K miles. (And yes, truckers aren't able to do this, but filling up is time). Edit: I'm in the industry and this is one case where time really is money.

toomuchtodo 6y ago
How does the math change if diesel trucks have to pay for their CO2 emissions?
- reitzensteinm 6y ago
  Yeah, it would be so nice to have market forces figuring this stuff out. Haphazard subsidies are better than nothing, but I suspect much less than optimal.

chrisco255 6y ago

Truck drivers have to take mandatory breaks every so often. Seems like after driving for 300 - 500 miles, would be a perfect time to recharge while you recharge.

sgt 6y ago
In Norway there is a mandatory 45 minute break after 4.5 hours of driving, and you cannot drive for more than 90 hours during a 14 day period.
devilbunny 6y ago
As others have pointed out, the driver has to rest. The truck does not. It's an expensive piece of capital equipment that you want to keep on the road at all times until it needs maintenance. This is a good example of where swappable battery packs would actually be useful. The extra weight cost of making it swappable is much smaller as a percentage than it would be for a car, and shipping companies that run regular routes could easily have their own facilities to handle such things.

SigmundA 6y ago

The logistics of interchanging a $100,000 - 10,000lbs battery needs to be considered. Most of the value if the tractor is the battery as is the weight, you aren't just going to swap them out at some random truck stop.

jokit 6y ago

I wonder if it's easier to just rely on the truck recharging to 80% capacity (which would be at least 900 miles with one 30 minute break, according to them), then the issues that might arise in swapping out the batteries. Where I'm sure they could design a method for pretty simple battery swapping, and maybe even in less than half the time, maybe they figured that charging the batteries for the mandated 30 minute break would always be a simpler process that would require much less infrastructure (and maybe no other effort other than the driver's), to accomplish. 900 mile range as "worst case scenario" with a 30 minute break after 500 miles seems like it would be sufficient to me. Even with a second driver, if they mandate 30 minute breaks, a truck will be stopped for 30 minutes. Did I miss how long they suggested it would take to fully recharge?