5 ms·

Activists seize control of Seattle neighborhood, declare “autonomous zone.”

16 points by aazaa 6y ago

Bostonian 6y ago
Actual title: 'Anarchy in Seattle: Antifa-affiliated activists seize control of a city neighborhood and declare an “autonomous zone.”' I regard Antifa as criminals and terrorists and would not want to live under them.
- TaylorAlexander 6y ago
  > I regard Antifa as criminals and terrorists Why?
  - ttwinder 6y ago
    They chased police out of a section of the city under threat of violence, with the explicit goal of dismantling the local (and national) police force and upending governed rule of law. They're also armed (video of Raz with an AK variant on site, and public announcements of the gun club being on-site and armed "for their protection") and, of course, making demands. This objectively meets the definition of both terrorism and criminality. Now, you may agree with their cause, and even their methods, but if we want to document and discuss exactly what's happening, we need to start by calling spades spades.
    - eggy 6y ago
      "Hoping to break through the barricade, protesters attacked officers with bricks, bottles, rocks, and improvised explosive devices, sending some officers to the hospital. At the same time, activists circulated videos of the conflict and accused the police of brutality, demanding that the city cease using teargas and other anti-riot techniques." Expecting not to be tear gassed while your antifa cohorts are using bricks, bottles, rocks, and improvised explosive devices (IEDs) against the police seems unreasonable even if people are calling to ban tear gas and rubber bullets. Rubber bullets can kill, but tear gas as an equal response to IEDs seems the lesser of two evils. I expect they will relinquish control of their "autonomous zone" when they can no longer maintain their own order or clean up the waste that will build up as services fail.
      - fwip 6y ago
        I hope you know that the "IEDs" that the cops found were candles left over from a vigil earlier. Still with the sticker on them, no less.
        eggy 6y ago
        I didn't, but it seems upon following up on your comment they were thrown and not found left overs. Not IEDs, but one of the objects along with bottles and rocks being thrown.
    - ttwinder 6y ago
      It's surreal to see this downvoted to -4 given all I did was rightly point out that the actions of the protestors fall under the definitions of "criminal" and "terrorist". I've been coming here for some 4 years now and never have I seen this place so unnecessarily partisan. Perhaps a reflection of the current state of society.
      - Theory5 6y ago
        No, you're quoting word for word a heavily biased article, pushed from a site that is publishing "information" without being able to prove it or provide supporting sources, and whose outlandish claims don't match up to multiple reports by news agencies with years if not decades of experience providing news both locally and nationally. Time, NPR, and several others paint a much different picture, and appear to be able to actually substantiate THEIR articles, unlike this one that you're championing.
        ttwinder 6y ago
        This time I didn't even read the article. >without being able to prove it or provide supporting sources Are you disputing that the protests have been filled with people yelling about dismantling the system? Have you seen the BLM website? Do you deny that these same people have commandeered an area in Seattle? Which of these facts is incorrect? And if they are correct, let's look at the definition of terrorism: >he use of violence or the threat of violence, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political goals. >Resort to terrorizing methods as a means of coercion, or the state of fear and submission produced by the prevalence of such methods. You think the police left peacefully? You think business owners weren't coerced after seeing businesses burned and looted all over the country, including in Seattle by people chanting the same slogans of this movement? If you've only seen portrayal on the news, I'm sorry that you did not witness the violence on the dozens of livestreams from the first week or so.
  - Bostonian 6y ago
    The latest evidence for my assertion is the nationwide looting and arson orchestrated by Antifa.
    - ajkjk 6y ago
      Presumably, then, evidence that there was no "nationwide looting and arson orchestrated by antifa" would help change your mind?
    - senectus1 6y ago
      I would suggest that you question the trustworthiness of your sources.
- ajkjk 6y ago
  Be careful where you get your information from. The protesters are not Antifa-affiliated. And it's not 'seizing' control if the city and police are letting them do it (it's an 'exercise in deescalation', according to the police chief).
Barrin92 6y ago
"On the new rebel state’s first night, the atmosphere was festive and triumphant. Hooded men spray-painted the police station with slogans and anarchist symbols, renaming it the “Seattle People’s Department East Precinct.” Raz Simone, a local rapper with an AK-47 slung from his shoulder and a pistol attached to his hip, screamed, “This is war!” into a white-and-red megaphone and instructed armed paramilitaries to guard the barricades in shifts. Later in the night, Simone was filmed allegedly assaulting multiple protestors who disobeyed his orders, informing them that he was the "police" now, sparking fears that he was becoming the de facto warlord of the autonomous zone. A homeless man with a baseball bat wandered along the borderline and two unofficial medics in medieval-style chain mail stood ready for action." This sounds like the real world version of a Shadowrun game lol. Honestly the city's response was probably appropriate, let them LARP for a while until they run out of bottled water or whatever.
- 0max 6y ago
  Maybe if they LARP hard enough, the PNW will get their own version of Freetown Christiania https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freetown_Christiania https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freetown_Christiania
fwip 6y ago
Some people associated with it have recently put up their own website: https://caphillauto.zone/ https://caphillauto.zone/ You can watch live footage of the zone, read their demands, and see the answers to some FAQs. There is a lot of purposeful misinformation going around - rumors of food shortages, extortion, and "paramilitary death squads." These aren't true, to say the least.
- ttwinder 6y ago
  How do you know that the local shops aren't being extorted? You think the shop owners consented to this takeover? Is it really far-fetched to believe that these shop owners expect violence to their property and possibly their person if they do not participate?
  - ajkjk 6y ago
    > How do you know that the local shops aren't being extorted? of course it is, like, physically possible that that's happening. There's just no evidence of it happening, so there's no reason to believe it.
  - david38 6y ago
    How do we know you don’t have a girl in your basement tied up? That’s not how things work.
  - fwip 6y ago
    Because the local shops have said that they're not being extorted. They're happy to have all the local business.
- gremlinsinc 6y ago
  I'm a socialist (not normal though more libertarian/non-statist), and support this sort of thing, generally. I'm like not opposed, let's say. However, I feel it's kind of a distraction at this specific moment, from what's going on and may actually hinder the BLM movement or at least stifle it's momentum... I mean: A. Cops give you a sandbox to play in, you claim it. You love it. You're not annoying the neighbors. B. You peacefully march through the richest neighbors day/night, and a different area each day bringing awareness to people from multiple places and on multiple fronts... While marching they should also be doing a HUGE voter driver and GTVO (I'm green party, but doesn't matter we need people to give a damn enough to vote whether for Biden or Howie). an aside, lol the website sounds like it's for an auto-zone... They need to pick a better name.
themodelplumber 6y ago
That's quite an uh, emotive take. IMO this article gives a more informational view of the situation: https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-protests-for-racial-justice/2020/06/11/874690470/go-back-to-your-bunker-seattle-mayor-tells-trump-in-spat-over-protests https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-protests-for-racia...
conroy 6y ago
A friend lives in Seattle and texted me today about his visit last night: > I was there last night and it's such a cool pseudo utopian place > The media coverage of it is WILD > People on the internet are convinced it's protected by armed guards and people are dying of hunger and instead its...like a music festival campground > There are speakers, musicians, art walls. I took a group pic for a bunch of black guys last night and they were so proud of what was built because they felt like they fought for it, which in a sense, they did.
- tronbabylove 6y ago
  I was also there last night and agree with your friend. I didn't personally see anyone with a gun, no one asked me for ID, and no one tried to charge me an entrance fee. The vibe is a cross between a summer block-party and a music festival: lots of street art, music, barbecues, canvassers collecting signatures for petitions, people planting a community garden. I saw several people I know from around the neighborhood who, if they have secret connections to Antifa, have done a remarkable job of hiding them. The disparity between my firsthand experience and the way that this is reported in the media has been eye-opening.
  - ardy42 6y ago
    > The disparity between my firsthand experience and the way that this is reported in the media has been eye-opening. I haven't read much about this zone, but I don't think I'd trust "City Journal" to describe it accurately. The HTML title of their front page is: > City Journal | Urban Affairs Magazine | Conservative Magazine Online Their front page is full of articles pushing back against the current protest movement, from pretty much every angle possible: > Racism Is An Empty Thesis > False Prophets: If you really want to help black America, don’t look to Black Lives Matter. > Repudiate the Anti-Police Narrative > The Cost of Bad Intentions: Progressive policies threaten a new era of urban dysfunction. > Why We Need the Police > Behavior Matters: Why some people spend their lives in poverty and social dysfunction
- ardy42 6y ago
  >> People on the internet are convinced it's protected by armed guards and people are dying of hunger and instead its...like a music festival campground If the internet is to be believed, it's been scientifically proven that anyone in an any area that deviates from capitalism immediately starts starving in a gulag.
adv2 6y ago
This article is a complete misrepresentation: - There is no "battle" between SPD and protesters. SPD was trying to quash protests, which resulted in a public backlash. SPD then decided to stop trying to control protesters and left the east precinct. the "autonomous zone" is simply what the protests are calling the new police void. - There is no actual evidence of material being thrown at SPD. With all the footage recorded, it would be on video, but all we see is flashbangs and tear gas. The "IED" was a photo of a smashed votive candle, presumably found on the ground. - The article seeks to find and name "leaders". There are no leaders, the autonomous zone is just a bunch of people doing stuff, where there is no police presence. - There is no sign that Anitfa is involved at all. This is just a boogyman.
advisedwang 6y ago
Where are all the "antifa" labels coming from? I've not seen any actual evidence that there is any antifa involvement at all. There's more than one activist group in the USA guys.
- ardy42 6y ago
  > Where are all the "antifa" labels coming from? An organized effort to undermine public support for the Black Lives Matter protests, and to create an enemy to justify over-the-top police actions. For example: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/09/nyregion/who-is-martin-gugino-buffalo-police.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/09/nyregion/who-is-martin-gu...: "The president and his allies have often tried to place anti-fascists and other “outside agitators” at the center of the protests as a way to delegitimize them and to deflect from the fact that the vast majority of the demonstrations have been peaceful." > I've not seen any actual evidence that there is any antifa involvement at all. There isn't any.
Apreche 6y ago
That's just how Seattle rolls. They've done it before, and they'll do it again. More power to them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_General_Strike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_General_Strike
jadell 6y ago
I'd be very interested to see how long this actually lasts. It's easy to keep what is essentially an ungoverned commune going for a "long music festival" length of time. Let's see how well it works over the course of months/years once tragedy of the commons kicks in and whatever "governing council" emerges suddenly realizes the only way to actually enforce rules on everybody...is with force. Plus, something like this seems ripe for "mob justice" when someone with contrary opinions decides they'd like to live in the "freedom zone". Wasn't there just a video circulating of a guy being run out of town because they crowd didn't like what he was saying? Who in this utopia decides which opinions are/aren't allowed and how do they enforce that? What happens when an innocent person gets accused of a crime, but since there's no legal system (without the threat of force to back it) the majority decides to take their own justice?
TrevorFSmith 6y ago
Hey, I live in Seattle and my (not WeWork) coworking space is in the CHAZ. Pretty much all of the press coverage feels like a broadcast from another dimension when I compare it to the place itself: mellow and kind of boring. The only real risk is that some wing of the government will send in uniforms or agitators. If that doesn't happen, I think they'll just do stuff like grow vegetables in Cal Anderson Park. Capitol Hill is usually a pretty fun and mellow place, so if outside forces don't change that it'll just keep on keeping on.

16 points by aazaa 6y ago

Actual title: 'Anarchy in Seattle: Antifa-affiliated activists seize control of a city neighborhood and declare an “autonomous zone.”' I regard Antifa as criminals and terrorists and would not want to live under them.

TaylorAlexander 6y ago
> I regard Antifa as criminals and terrorists Why?
- ttwinder 6y ago
  They chased police out of a section of the city under threat of violence, with the explicit goal of dismantling the local (and national) police force and upending governed rule of law. They're also armed (video of Raz with an AK variant on site, and public announcements of the gun club being on-site and armed "for their protection") and, of course, making demands. This objectively meets the definition of both terrorism and criminality. Now, you may agree with their cause, and even their methods, but if we want to document and discuss exactly what's happening, we need to start by calling spades spades.
  - eggy 6y ago
    "Hoping to break through the barricade, protesters attacked officers with bricks, bottles, rocks, and improvised explosive devices, sending some officers to the hospital. At the same time, activists circulated videos of the conflict and accused the police of brutality, demanding that the city cease using teargas and other anti-riot techniques." Expecting not to be tear gassed while your antifa cohorts are using bricks, bottles, rocks, and improvised explosive devices (IEDs) against the police seems unreasonable even if people are calling to ban tear gas and rubber bullets. Rubber bullets can kill, but tear gas as an equal response to IEDs seems the lesser of two evils. I expect they will relinquish control of their "autonomous zone" when they can no longer maintain their own order or clean up the waste that will build up as services fail.
    - fwip 6y ago
      I hope you know that the "IEDs" that the cops found were candles left over from a vigil earlier. Still with the sticker on them, no less.
      - eggy 6y ago
        I didn't, but it seems upon following up on your comment they were thrown and not found left overs. Not IEDs, but one of the objects along with bottles and rocks being thrown.
  - ttwinder 6y ago
    It's surreal to see this downvoted to -4 given all I did was rightly point out that the actions of the protestors fall under the definitions of "criminal" and "terrorist". I've been coming here for some 4 years now and never have I seen this place so unnecessarily partisan. Perhaps a reflection of the current state of society.
    - Theory5 6y ago
      No, you're quoting word for word a heavily biased article, pushed from a site that is publishing "information" without being able to prove it or provide supporting sources, and whose outlandish claims don't match up to multiple reports by news agencies with years if not decades of experience providing news both locally and nationally. Time, NPR, and several others paint a much different picture, and appear to be able to actually substantiate THEIR articles, unlike this one that you're championing.
      - ttwinder 6y ago
        This time I didn't even read the article. >without being able to prove it or provide supporting sources Are you disputing that the protests have been filled with people yelling about dismantling the system? Have you seen the BLM website? Do you deny that these same people have commandeered an area in Seattle? Which of these facts is incorrect? And if they are correct, let's look at the definition of terrorism: >he use of violence or the threat of violence, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political goals. >Resort to terrorizing methods as a means of coercion, or the state of fear and submission produced by the prevalence of such methods. You think the police left peacefully? You think business owners weren't coerced after seeing businesses burned and looted all over the country, including in Seattle by people chanting the same slogans of this movement? If you've only seen portrayal on the news, I'm sorry that you did not witness the violence on the dozens of livestreams from the first week or so.
- Bostonian 6y ago
  The latest evidence for my assertion is the nationwide looting and arson orchestrated by Antifa.
  - ajkjk 6y ago
    Presumably, then, evidence that there was no "nationwide looting and arson orchestrated by antifa" would help change your mind?
  - senectus1 6y ago
    I would suggest that you question the trustworthiness of your sources.
ajkjk 6y ago
Be careful where you get your information from. The protesters are not Antifa-affiliated. And it's not 'seizing' control if the city and police are letting them do it (it's an 'exercise in deescalation', according to the police chief).

Barrin92 6y ago

"On the new rebel state’s first night, the atmosphere was festive and triumphant. Hooded men spray-painted the police station with slogans and anarchist symbols, renaming it the “Seattle People’s Department East Precinct.” Raz Simone, a local rapper with an AK-47 slung from his shoulder and a pistol attached to his hip, screamed, “This is war!” into a white-and-red megaphone and instructed armed paramilitaries to guard the barricades in shifts. Later in the night, Simone was filmed allegedly assaulting multiple protestors who disobeyed his orders, informing them that he was the "police" now, sparking fears that he was becoming the de facto warlord of the autonomous zone. A homeless man with a baseball bat wandered along the borderline and two unofficial medics in medieval-style chain mail stood ready for action." This sounds like the real world version of a Shadowrun game lol. Honestly the city's response was probably appropriate, let them LARP for a while until they run out of bottled water or whatever.

0max 6y ago
Maybe if they LARP hard enough, the PNW will get their own version of Freetown Christiania https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freetown_Christiania https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freetown_Christiania

fwip 6y ago

Some people associated with it have recently put up their own website: https://caphillauto.zone/ https://caphillauto.zone/ You can watch live footage of the zone, read their demands, and see the answers to some FAQs. There is a lot of purposeful misinformation going around - rumors of food shortages, extortion, and "paramilitary death squads." These aren't true, to say the least.

ttwinder 6y ago
How do you know that the local shops aren't being extorted? You think the shop owners consented to this takeover? Is it really far-fetched to believe that these shop owners expect violence to their property and possibly their person if they do not participate?
- ajkjk 6y ago
  > How do you know that the local shops aren't being extorted? of course it is, like, physically possible that that's happening. There's just no evidence of it happening, so there's no reason to believe it.
- david38 6y ago
  How do we know you don’t have a girl in your basement tied up? That’s not how things work.
- fwip 6y ago
  Because the local shops have said that they're not being extorted. They're happy to have all the local business.
gremlinsinc 6y ago
I'm a socialist (not normal though more libertarian/non-statist), and support this sort of thing, generally. I'm like not opposed, let's say. However, I feel it's kind of a distraction at this specific moment, from what's going on and may actually hinder the BLM movement or at least stifle it's momentum... I mean: A. Cops give you a sandbox to play in, you claim it. You love it. You're not annoying the neighbors. B. You peacefully march through the richest neighbors day/night, and a different area each day bringing awareness to people from multiple places and on multiple fronts... While marching they should also be doing a HUGE voter driver and GTVO (I'm green party, but doesn't matter we need people to give a damn enough to vote whether for Biden or Howie). an aside, lol the website sounds like it's for an auto-zone... They need to pick a better name.

themodelplumber 6y ago

That's quite an uh, emotive take. IMO this article gives a more informational view of the situation: https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-protests-for-racial-justice/2020/06/11/874690470/go-back-to-your-bunker-seattle-mayor-tells-trump-in-spat-over-protests https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-protests-for-racia...

conroy 6y ago

A friend lives in Seattle and texted me today about his visit last night: > I was there last night and it's such a cool pseudo utopian place > The media coverage of it is WILD > People on the internet are convinced it's protected by armed guards and people are dying of hunger and instead its...like a music festival campground > There are speakers, musicians, art walls. I took a group pic for a bunch of black guys last night and they were so proud of what was built because they felt like they fought for it, which in a sense, they did.

tronbabylove 6y ago
I was also there last night and agree with your friend. I didn't personally see anyone with a gun, no one asked me for ID, and no one tried to charge me an entrance fee. The vibe is a cross between a summer block-party and a music festival: lots of street art, music, barbecues, canvassers collecting signatures for petitions, people planting a community garden. I saw several people I know from around the neighborhood who, if they have secret connections to Antifa, have done a remarkable job of hiding them. The disparity between my firsthand experience and the way that this is reported in the media has been eye-opening.
- ardy42 6y ago
  > The disparity between my firsthand experience and the way that this is reported in the media has been eye-opening. I haven't read much about this zone, but I don't think I'd trust "City Journal" to describe it accurately. The HTML title of their front page is: > City Journal | Urban Affairs Magazine | Conservative Magazine Online Their front page is full of articles pushing back against the current protest movement, from pretty much every angle possible: > Racism Is An Empty Thesis > False Prophets: If you really want to help black America, don’t look to Black Lives Matter. > Repudiate the Anti-Police Narrative > The Cost of Bad Intentions: Progressive policies threaten a new era of urban dysfunction. > Why We Need the Police > Behavior Matters: Why some people spend their lives in poverty and social dysfunction
ardy42 6y ago
>> People on the internet are convinced it's protected by armed guards and people are dying of hunger and instead its...like a music festival campground If the internet is to be believed, it's been scientifically proven that anyone in an any area that deviates from capitalism immediately starts starving in a gulag.

adv2 6y ago

This article is a complete misrepresentation: - There is no "battle" between SPD and protesters. SPD was trying to quash protests, which resulted in a public backlash. SPD then decided to stop trying to control protesters and left the east precinct. the "autonomous zone" is simply what the protests are calling the new police void. - There is no actual evidence of material being thrown at SPD. With all the footage recorded, it would be on video, but all we see is flashbangs and tear gas. The "IED" was a photo of a smashed votive candle, presumably found on the ground. - The article seeks to find and name "leaders". There are no leaders, the autonomous zone is just a bunch of people doing stuff, where there is no police presence. - There is no sign that Anitfa is involved at all. This is just a boogyman.

advisedwang 6y ago

Where are all the "antifa" labels coming from? I've not seen any actual evidence that there is any antifa involvement at all. There's more than one activist group in the USA guys.

ardy42 6y ago
> Where are all the "antifa" labels coming from? An organized effort to undermine public support for the Black Lives Matter protests, and to create an enemy to justify over-the-top police actions. For example: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/09/nyregion/who-is-martin-gugino-buffalo-police.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/09/nyregion/who-is-martin-gu...: "The president and his allies have often tried to place anti-fascists and other “outside agitators” at the center of the protests as a way to delegitimize them and to deflect from the fact that the vast majority of the demonstrations have been peaceful." > I've not seen any actual evidence that there is any antifa involvement at all. There isn't any.

Apreche 6y ago

That's just how Seattle rolls. They've done it before, and they'll do it again. More power to them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_General_Strike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_General_Strike

jadell 6y ago

I'd be very interested to see how long this actually lasts. It's easy to keep what is essentially an ungoverned commune going for a "long music festival" length of time. Let's see how well it works over the course of months/years once tragedy of the commons kicks in and whatever "governing council" emerges suddenly realizes the only way to actually enforce rules on everybody...is with force. Plus, something like this seems ripe for "mob justice" when someone with contrary opinions decides they'd like to live in the "freedom zone". Wasn't there just a video circulating of a guy being run out of town because they crowd didn't like what he was saying? Who in this utopia decides which opinions are/aren't allowed and how do they enforce that? What happens when an innocent person gets accused of a crime, but since there's no legal system (without the threat of force to back it) the majority decides to take their own justice?

TrevorFSmith 6y ago

Hey, I live in Seattle and my (not WeWork) coworking space is in the CHAZ. Pretty much all of the press coverage feels like a broadcast from another dimension when I compare it to the place itself: mellow and kind of boring. The only real risk is that some wing of the government will send in uniforms or agitators. If that doesn't happen, I think they'll just do stuff like grow vegetables in Cal Anderson Park. Capitol Hill is usually a pretty fun and mellow place, so if outside forces don't change that it'll just keep on keeping on.