5 ms·

One of the comments effectively frames the motivations for the US's current institutional disparities: * The preference of well-off whites to pull the ladder u

by agar 6y ago

One of the comments effectively frames the motivations for the US's current institutional disparities: * The preference of well-off whites to pull the ladder up behind them; * The preference of police unions to protect their members at all costs; * The preference of the average non-black voter to not have to think about this crap. I like that this is a pragmatic perspective that doesn't assume malicious intent behind most institutional racism (and tech debt, to continue the article's metaphor). People naturally act in their self-interest; it's not "I hate you" it's just "I'm not going to think about consequences when I optimize this solution for myself." While there are certainly many bad actors both in the creation and maintenance of our broken systems, IMO the vast majority of people are risk averse, passive participants in the status quo - i.e., falling into the third bucket. Even the more active participants in the first two buckets can justify their actions from inside their bubble; the horrible negative consequences are most visible only when placed in contrast to situations they often don't see. Fortunately, people are recognizing the consequences of their actions - though not universally, and of course far too late to stop the death and marginalization of large numbers. I hope it's a sign we're on the path to reduce or eliminate society's tech debt before the system crashes. Like all complex projects though, it needs sustained strong leadership.

Proven 6y ago
> Like all complex projects though, it needs sustained strong leadership. On the contrary. The debt is there only because of the extreme centralization and your "strong leadership". I don't know about you but I am 100% sure my share of public debt would be a pittance if I had say in how money got spent (and borrowed) Decentralize and send leaders home. Let's see what happens with public debt.
yamoriyamori 6y ago
> "I'm not going to think about consequences when I optimize this solution for myself." This. There's the clearly overt racism people love to upload/watch on youtube, but I like this sentence how it captures the 'institutional' racism. (I have a hard time conveying this in conversation with friends.) And over time this has created a very deep divide, along race. I'm reminded of an Alan Greenspan quote (that a can't find current, so I'm going to butcher it in paraphrase): beware the possibility that segments of the population will become "reluctant to participate" if the hill is too steep or if they perceive the system is against them, because the system will then be worthless because people will exit. I think he said this around the 2008 collapse.
- agar 6y ago
  That's a good quote (or sentiment). Relating back to technical systems, it reminds me of implementing a CRM (customer relationship management) or other collaborative data system. Higher difficulty of use translates to lower participation, which leads to lower value, which leads to lower use...and so on.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
pdonis 6y ago
I think the problem is better described not as "institutional racism" but as "institutional corruption", which is (a) broader, and (b) suggestive of different potential fixes. From what I can see, the proposed solution to "institutional racism" is to browbeat everybody into thinking nicer thoughts. But we've been trying that for decades now and it hasn't worked. Whereas, the solution for institutional corruption is to change the structure of the institutions, so that the people in them have different, better incentives. In many cases, I think that means reducing the power of the institutions over people's lives, and putting more power and choice back into the hands of each individual.
- Benjammer 6y ago
  >From what I can see, the proposed solution to "institutional racism" is to browbeat everybody into thinking nicer thoughts. This is a straw man, everything about the current push ("from what I can see") is towards exactly the types of anti corruption efforts you described.
  - Jtsummers 6y ago
    Exactly. - Deescalation training - Defunding (extreme) - Demilitarizing the police - Community outreach - Reduce over-policing etc. These are the things that have been talked about and pushed for the past decade (well, in some circles decades, but nationally it's a conversation that comes and goes, but has stayed at the top the past decade or so).
  - pdonis 6y ago
    > everything about the current push ("from what I can see") is towards exactly the types of anti corruption efforts you described Not "everything" is. Yes, "anti-corruption efforts" are being pushed. But you have shifted your ground. Now you're talking about "anti corruption efforts". Before you were talking about "institutional racism". The latter is, as I said, narrower; it amounts to saying, first, that the institutional corruption has racism as its sole or primary root cause (which I think is false--I think racism is a symptom of corruption, but not the only one, and certainly not its cause), and second, that the only reason to fix institutional corruption is to fix racism (which is also false). And that is exactly the kind of rhetoric I see all over the place. The reason to fix institutional corruption is that it's corruption. Citizens of every demographic are affected by institutional corruption and want to fix it. I think it's much better to unite around that common goal than to talk about "racism", which is only going to divide people who should be united against corruption.
radu_floricica 6y ago
Looks to me like the more you use the word "racism", the farther from the solution you get. Not because it's not there, but because the word simply prompts mental models that are very entrenched and it's unlikely they'll lead to much change. Trying to go for approaches that reframe the problems might be more productive. One point to take from this article is that there are interest groups that will lose power from any meaningful reform. Saying they're "white" is... just the same as usual. Saying that chief among them is quite likely the top management of law enforcement institutions is a lot more conductive to new solutions. And so on.
- agar 6y ago
  I like your framing, because it provides an opportunity to "judo" some of the institutional resistance to change. Loss of power is a huge motivator for the status quo. Are there ways to facilitate institutional change that do not weaken the power structures with the most influence? It's an interesting thought experiment.

by agar 6y ago

Proven 6y ago

> Like all complex projects though, it needs sustained strong leadership. On the contrary. The debt is there only because of the extreme centralization and your "strong leadership". I don't know about you but I am 100% sure my share of public debt would be a pittance if I had say in how money got spent (and borrowed) Decentralize and send leaders home. Let's see what happens with public debt.

yamoriyamori 6y ago

> "I'm not going to think about consequences when I optimize this solution for myself." This. There's the clearly overt racism people love to upload/watch on youtube, but I like this sentence how it captures the 'institutional' racism. (I have a hard time conveying this in conversation with friends.) And over time this has created a very deep divide, along race. I'm reminded of an Alan Greenspan quote (that a can't find current, so I'm going to butcher it in paraphrase): beware the possibility that segments of the population will become "reluctant to participate" if the hill is too steep or if they perceive the system is against them, because the system will then be worthless because people will exit. I think he said this around the 2008 collapse.

agar 6y ago
That's a good quote (or sentiment). Relating back to technical systems, it reminds me of implementing a CRM (customer relationship management) or other collaborative data system. Higher difficulty of use translates to lower participation, which leads to lower value, which leads to lower use...and so on.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

pdonis 6y ago

I think the problem is better described not as "institutional racism" but as "institutional corruption", which is (a) broader, and (b) suggestive of different potential fixes. From what I can see, the proposed solution to "institutional racism" is to browbeat everybody into thinking nicer thoughts. But we've been trying that for decades now and it hasn't worked. Whereas, the solution for institutional corruption is to change the structure of the institutions, so that the people in them have different, better incentives. In many cases, I think that means reducing the power of the institutions over people's lives, and putting more power and choice back into the hands of each individual.

Benjammer 6y ago
>From what I can see, the proposed solution to "institutional racism" is to browbeat everybody into thinking nicer thoughts. This is a straw man, everything about the current push ("from what I can see") is towards exactly the types of anti corruption efforts you described.
- Jtsummers 6y ago
  Exactly. - Deescalation training - Defunding (extreme) - Demilitarizing the police - Community outreach - Reduce over-policing etc. These are the things that have been talked about and pushed for the past decade (well, in some circles decades, but nationally it's a conversation that comes and goes, but has stayed at the top the past decade or so).
- pdonis 6y ago
  > everything about the current push ("from what I can see") is towards exactly the types of anti corruption efforts you described Not "everything" is. Yes, "anti-corruption efforts" are being pushed. But you have shifted your ground. Now you're talking about "anti corruption efforts". Before you were talking about "institutional racism". The latter is, as I said, narrower; it amounts to saying, first, that the institutional corruption has racism as its sole or primary root cause (which I think is false--I think racism is a symptom of corruption, but not the only one, and certainly not its cause), and second, that the only reason to fix institutional corruption is to fix racism (which is also false). And that is exactly the kind of rhetoric I see all over the place. The reason to fix institutional corruption is that it's corruption. Citizens of every demographic are affected by institutional corruption and want to fix it. I think it's much better to unite around that common goal than to talk about "racism", which is only going to divide people who should be united against corruption.

radu_floricica 6y ago

Looks to me like the more you use the word "racism", the farther from the solution you get. Not because it's not there, but because the word simply prompts mental models that are very entrenched and it's unlikely they'll lead to much change. Trying to go for approaches that reframe the problems might be more productive. One point to take from this article is that there are interest groups that will lose power from any meaningful reform. Saying they're "white" is... just the same as usual. Saying that chief among them is quite likely the top management of law enforcement institutions is a lot more conductive to new solutions. And so on.

agar 6y ago
I like your framing, because it provides an opportunity to "judo" some of the institutional resistance to change. Loss of power is a huge motivator for the status quo. Are there ways to facilitate institutional change that do not weaken the power structures with the most influence? It's an interesting thought experiment.