5 ms·

Microsoft hasn't changed after all... I used to like what they were doing with WSL, but now on the contrary it starts to worry me, because it can become an ave

Microsoft hasn't changed after all... I used to like what they were doing with WSL, but now on the contrary it starts to worry me, because it can become an avenue of evil behavior against users/devs/open-source/...

lmilcin 6y ago
Microsoft did change. But then it looked how Apple and Google did the same thing, successfully, and sailed away in terms of market share and now it wants to replicate the success. The thing is, I don't think it is going to succeed. The likely thing that is already happening is that power users are leaving Windows and once power users leave the platform will die.
- theonemind 6y ago
  I don't think Mac has moved in a direction to win over power users, and Linux has a slipping desktop market share. I don't see a power-user exodus from Windows, really.
  - realusername 6y ago
    > I don't see a power-user exodus from Windows, really. The power users outside of the MS ecosystem already left Windows a while ago you mean. A lot of mainstream tech tools & languages only have a medium support on Windows which is not really prioritized that much compared to the Mac & Linux versions. WSL is a big move to try to win those power users back.
- close04 6y ago
  Power users customize their own installation, they don't download a modified ISO from Yandex. This isn't aimed at power user but at regular users who don't understand what was done to it or the risk of downloading your OS from an untrusted source. It's so easy to turn them into rootkit encrusted ISOs and just call them "NEW! Updated Ninjutsu OS v2.0".
  - lmilcin 6y ago
    I don't mean for this particular tool. I mean for the fact you have less and less to say with regards to your installation. I have been Windows user for many years but around 4-5 years ago I got fed up with the fact Microsoft decides on a daily basis to change completely the stuff I own and not let me have anything to say about it. I don't want to have any Live accounts to log in to my machine, I don't want significant updates installed without me having anything to say about it. I want to spend time doing actual work and not babysitting the OS because I just got interrupted by another Microsoft idea. Currently the only Windows I personally use is a VM I use to do my remote work because I am forced to use Windows. Just this weekend I got the very significant Edge update that completely blew my setup and caused me to spend an entire day to fix. As I am paid by the hour this is pretty significant: unhappy client, lots of work stacked. You would think a backup would help? After all this is VM that I basically don't touch. The only site I open is the one I use for remote connection. The only tool I ever run is Edge. Unfortunately, it was not possible for me to revive the backup and not have it immediately do its thing. I am disgusted.
    - hkt 6y ago
      I've just returned to Windows for the first time in 20 years having had a pet VM of the kind you describe for Windows tasks before. I am pretty astonished that I am forced to update so often and that Windows still needs reboots for most of its systems. Compared to only updating for the occasional kernel patch when I was a Linux desktop user on Debian it is almost comical.
      - AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
        That's due to a fundamental difference in how each OS handles files. Linux will let you replace a file that is open in another running process, and Windows won't. Each way of doing things has its pros and cons. It isn't the kind of thing that can be easily resolved.
    - thejynxed 6y ago
      See, this bit about the Live account is where you and I differ. It's now so much easier just to have my Live account that mirrors my Local User account, except I use a PIN to login instead of a password and my Win10 license is bound to my Live account so if I need to reinstall and reactivate I don't have to screw around with manually typing keys or having to call MS to activate, it simply works.
- unicornfinder 6y ago
  From my perception the power users already left years ago. It's just that with WSL they're very slowly starting to come back.
  - disiplus 6y ago
    wsl is not that great https://github.com/microsoft/WSL/issues/4197#issue-458254244 https://github.com/microsoft/WSL/issues/4197#issue-458254244
    - nickjj 6y ago
      Accessing mounted drives can be avoided by putting your source code in WSL 2's file system, but it is for sure still a pressing issue since folks tend to have multiple drives and want to access them within WSL. But to your point, WSL 2 does have some really big issues pending tho, such as https://github.com/microsoft/WSL/issues/4166 https://github.com/microsoft/WSL/issues/4166 and https://github.com/microsoft/WSL/issues/4699 https://github.com/microsoft/WSL/issues/4699. The TL;DR is that WSL 2 will happily use 80% of your system's memory by default and it never frees disk up in the VM that it runs in. The VM's disk will continue to grow and grow unless you as an end user run some PowerShell incantations to shrink the vhdx. In other words, deleting files from within WSL 2 won't clear the disk space used by the VM. Within like 2 hours of using WSL 2 for the first time I found my system grinding to a halt because it used 11GB of memory and chewed through 60GB of my SSD since when I copied my source code into WSL 2's file system (to avoid the poor performance documented in your issue) I forgot I had a ton of wave files included in one of the directories since I kept those in a private directory in my podcast site's source code.
      - karatestomp 6y ago
        I don’t get why WSL is better than a Linux VM in hyper-v or virtual box, until it’s way smoother than it currently is. You can full screen the VM to work entirely in dwm or i3 or whatever if that’s your thing, plus Xpra and SSH exist if you want to run Linux stuff alongside Windows (I assume there are free clients for both in Windows?). With that way of working you can even run Linux somewhere else to offload the resource use almost entirely, and if local it takes seconds to suspend the whole thing. The last thing I’d want, working with Linux tools, is to have another thing I have to eliminate as a source of trouble when anything breaks.
- nickjj 6y ago
  > The likely thing that is already happening is that power users are leaving Windows and once power users leave the platform will die I would consider myself a power user, but the only reason I stick with Windows still is because I can't find a good reliable video editor on Linux -- and also some games. Kdenlive makes doing super common things a lot more difficult and time consuming than what's available on Windows video editors and DaVinci Resolve has potential but it's the most crash prone piece of software I've run into on any platform, and also has severe audio quality issues when exporting mp4s (on my hardware at least -- I couldn't use it to create videos due to that). But I would think at this point, power users are only a drop in the bucket compared to the gaming crowd in terms of audience size. Right now on Linux, gaming comes down to hoping 3rd party tools allow you to run most games you want, or you dual boot (really annoying) or you run KVM with a GPU pass-through to run Windows in a VM with native performance (approaching 1 level above power user level just to set this up and 2 video cards).
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- hkt 6y ago
  After twenty years on Debian I just bought a Windows laptop on the strength of WSL2 and Docker for Windows. Being able to play SimCity has been a bonus, and I feel like I have the best of both worlds thanks to recent Windows additions. It isn't perfect but the Linux Desktop experience isn't either. Nor is OSX, in my experience. My point being: I've been a very stubborn desktop Linux user for a long time and have migrated to Windows. The traffic, I suspect, is going the opposite way to what you seem to expect, at least for now.
  - smolder 6y ago
    And do you also appreciate them gathering lots of telemetry from your use of your computer and taking away your ability to opt out of that?
  - ldiracdelta 6y ago
    Why is it all or nothing? I dual boot my machine so I can game. Otherwise I dev' in Linux.
romanovcode 6y ago
Did you even read the article? Someone took ISO and modified it for re-distribution which is piracy. It has absolutely nothing to do with disabling features on your own Win10 installation.
- henearkr 6y ago
  Yes I had RTFA. Seems like you can download Windows nowadays, and you need to buy the license key separately. I am wrong? (I ask naively, because I am not a Microsoft user)
  - thejynxed 6y ago
    Yes, that is how it works, and you can buy a key right inside the Windows Store app so you don't even have to go digging in Microsoft's website nor a reseller site.
- nkurz 6y ago
  Maybe the linked article has been updated since you posted, but this is not true of the current article. Yes, they were distributing a modified ISO and it probably should/could have been taken down on straight copyright grounds. But the article is about the fact that rather than concentrating on this clear violation, the DMCA complaint specifically calls out the modifications as infringing because "the link provides a work around technical restrictions of the software". This distinction is directly addressed in the paragraph that starts "At first view, some may conclude that Ninjutsu OS amounts to a heavily modified yet pirated version of Windows 10."

lmilcin 6y ago

Microsoft did change. But then it looked how Apple and Google did the same thing, successfully, and sailed away in terms of market share and now it wants to replicate the success. The thing is, I don't think it is going to succeed. The likely thing that is already happening is that power users are leaving Windows and once power users leave the platform will die.

theonemind 6y ago
I don't think Mac has moved in a direction to win over power users, and Linux has a slipping desktop market share. I don't see a power-user exodus from Windows, really.
- realusername 6y ago
  > I don't see a power-user exodus from Windows, really. The power users outside of the MS ecosystem already left Windows a while ago you mean. A lot of mainstream tech tools & languages only have a medium support on Windows which is not really prioritized that much compared to the Mac & Linux versions. WSL is a big move to try to win those power users back.
close04 6y ago
Power users customize their own installation, they don't download a modified ISO from Yandex. This isn't aimed at power user but at regular users who don't understand what was done to it or the risk of downloading your OS from an untrusted source. It's so easy to turn them into rootkit encrusted ISOs and just call them "NEW! Updated Ninjutsu OS v2.0".
- lmilcin 6y ago
  I don't mean for this particular tool. I mean for the fact you have less and less to say with regards to your installation. I have been Windows user for many years but around 4-5 years ago I got fed up with the fact Microsoft decides on a daily basis to change completely the stuff I own and not let me have anything to say about it. I don't want to have any Live accounts to log in to my machine, I don't want significant updates installed without me having anything to say about it. I want to spend time doing actual work and not babysitting the OS because I just got interrupted by another Microsoft idea. Currently the only Windows I personally use is a VM I use to do my remote work because I am forced to use Windows. Just this weekend I got the very significant Edge update that completely blew my setup and caused me to spend an entire day to fix. As I am paid by the hour this is pretty significant: unhappy client, lots of work stacked. You would think a backup would help? After all this is VM that I basically don't touch. The only site I open is the one I use for remote connection. The only tool I ever run is Edge. Unfortunately, it was not possible for me to revive the backup and not have it immediately do its thing. I am disgusted.
  - hkt 6y ago
    I've just returned to Windows for the first time in 20 years having had a pet VM of the kind you describe for Windows tasks before. I am pretty astonished that I am forced to update so often and that Windows still needs reboots for most of its systems. Compared to only updating for the occasional kernel patch when I was a Linux desktop user on Debian it is almost comical.
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
      That's due to a fundamental difference in how each OS handles files. Linux will let you replace a file that is open in another running process, and Windows won't. Each way of doing things has its pros and cons. It isn't the kind of thing that can be easily resolved.
  - thejynxed 6y ago
    See, this bit about the Live account is where you and I differ. It's now so much easier just to have my Live account that mirrors my Local User account, except I use a PIN to login instead of a password and my Win10 license is bound to my Live account so if I need to reinstall and reactivate I don't have to screw around with manually typing keys or having to call MS to activate, it simply works.
unicornfinder 6y ago
From my perception the power users already left years ago. It's just that with WSL they're very slowly starting to come back.
- disiplus 6y ago
  wsl is not that great https://github.com/microsoft/WSL/issues/4197#issue-458254244 https://github.com/microsoft/WSL/issues/4197#issue-458254244
  - nickjj 6y ago
    Accessing mounted drives can be avoided by putting your source code in WSL 2's file system, but it is for sure still a pressing issue since folks tend to have multiple drives and want to access them within WSL. But to your point, WSL 2 does have some really big issues pending tho, such as https://github.com/microsoft/WSL/issues/4166 https://github.com/microsoft/WSL/issues/4166 and https://github.com/microsoft/WSL/issues/4699 https://github.com/microsoft/WSL/issues/4699. The TL;DR is that WSL 2 will happily use 80% of your system's memory by default and it never frees disk up in the VM that it runs in. The VM's disk will continue to grow and grow unless you as an end user run some PowerShell incantations to shrink the vhdx. In other words, deleting files from within WSL 2 won't clear the disk space used by the VM. Within like 2 hours of using WSL 2 for the first time I found my system grinding to a halt because it used 11GB of memory and chewed through 60GB of my SSD since when I copied my source code into WSL 2's file system (to avoid the poor performance documented in your issue) I forgot I had a ton of wave files included in one of the directories since I kept those in a private directory in my podcast site's source code.
    - karatestomp 6y ago
      I don’t get why WSL is better than a Linux VM in hyper-v or virtual box, until it’s way smoother than it currently is. You can full screen the VM to work entirely in dwm or i3 or whatever if that’s your thing, plus Xpra and SSH exist if you want to run Linux stuff alongside Windows (I assume there are free clients for both in Windows?). With that way of working you can even run Linux somewhere else to offload the resource use almost entirely, and if local it takes seconds to suspend the whole thing. The last thing I’d want, working with Linux tools, is to have another thing I have to eliminate as a source of trouble when anything breaks.
nickjj 6y ago
> The likely thing that is already happening is that power users are leaving Windows and once power users leave the platform will die I would consider myself a power user, but the only reason I stick with Windows still is because I can't find a good reliable video editor on Linux -- and also some games. Kdenlive makes doing super common things a lot more difficult and time consuming than what's available on Windows video editors and DaVinci Resolve has potential but it's the most crash prone piece of software I've run into on any platform, and also has severe audio quality issues when exporting mp4s (on my hardware at least -- I couldn't use it to create videos due to that). But I would think at this point, power users are only a drop in the bucket compared to the gaming crowd in terms of audience size. Right now on Linux, gaming comes down to hoping 3rd party tools allow you to run most games you want, or you dual boot (really annoying) or you run KVM with a GPU pass-through to run Windows in a VM with native performance (approaching 1 level above power user level just to set this up and 2 video cards).
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
hkt 6y ago
After twenty years on Debian I just bought a Windows laptop on the strength of WSL2 and Docker for Windows. Being able to play SimCity has been a bonus, and I feel like I have the best of both worlds thanks to recent Windows additions. It isn't perfect but the Linux Desktop experience isn't either. Nor is OSX, in my experience. My point being: I've been a very stubborn desktop Linux user for a long time and have migrated to Windows. The traffic, I suspect, is going the opposite way to what you seem to expect, at least for now.
- smolder 6y ago
  And do you also appreciate them gathering lots of telemetry from your use of your computer and taking away your ability to opt out of that?
- ldiracdelta 6y ago
  Why is it all or nothing? I dual boot my machine so I can game. Otherwise I dev' in Linux.

romanovcode 6y ago

Did you even read the article? Someone took ISO and modified it for re-distribution which is piracy. It has absolutely nothing to do with disabling features on your own Win10 installation.

henearkr 6y ago
Yes I had RTFA. Seems like you can download Windows nowadays, and you need to buy the license key separately. I am wrong? (I ask naively, because I am not a Microsoft user)
- thejynxed 6y ago
  Yes, that is how it works, and you can buy a key right inside the Windows Store app so you don't even have to go digging in Microsoft's website nor a reseller site.
nkurz 6y ago
Maybe the linked article has been updated since you posted, but this is not true of the current article. Yes, they were distributing a modified ISO and it probably should/could have been taken down on straight copyright grounds. But the article is about the fact that rather than concentrating on this clear violation, the DMCA complaint specifically calls out the modifications as infringing because "the link provides a work around technical restrictions of the software". This distinction is directly addressed in the paragraph that starts "At first view, some may conclude that Ninjutsu OS amounts to a heavily modified yet pirated version of Windows 10."