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We're used to the idea of this happening when companies sell printers, game consoles, etc. at the slimmest of margins and rely on the sale of associated consuma
by beloch 6y ago
We're used to the idea of this happening when companies sell printers, game consoles, etc. at the slimmest of margins and rely on the sale of associated consumables (e.g. ink) to make a profit.
We're starting to see this kind of practice on an increasing number of big-ticket items where the consumables (filters in this case) represent a tiny fraction of the overall cost. GE isn't making the majority of their money off of selling you replacement filters, yet they've gone and done this to make a few extra bucks. I have a Samsung TV that tries to show me postage stamp sized ads when I'm in it's interface. I spent thousands on the thing and Samsung will be lucky to get pennies from those ads. I add filters to block the domains those ads are coming from to my router periodically, but Samsung keeps coming up with new ones.
The next TV I buy will not be a Samsung, and I suspect the author of this article has bought his last GE appliance. Why are companies driving away people who make multi-thousand dollar purchases with scummy behaviour that nets them spare change? Do the vast majority of people just not care? That's the only way the math makes sense.
- tiernano 6y agoeasy way to solve the problem: disconnect the TV From the internet... do you really need a smart TV? i got my samsung a few months back, and when setting it up, never connected it to the wifi or ethernet. I have an AppleTV, XBox One and NVidia Shield all plugged in and they are the smarts... The TV is JUST A SCREEN. It shouldnt be any more. It also means that 3 years down the road, Netflix changes something and your "Smart TV" looses access, your not "forced" to buy a new one... Apple change something and the AppleTV needs replacing? its $150 quid. Your TV is $1000+...
- fsflover 6y agoExcept that I paid not just for the screen, but also for the additional advertised "smart" features.
- iforgotpassword 6y agoBut it's factored into the price. TV prices fell a lot during the last two years or so. They earn from the ads, they sell your usage stats. You get a subsidized TV. Don't connect it to the net.
- cremp 6y agoSpit-balling; when will they put GSM chips in them? The cost of a data-plan could easily be reached with estimated figures for ads and selling usage data.
- dreamcompiler 6y agoGSM is old-hat. The new cool is 5G chips embedded in TVs, and they are coming. And you won't be able to opt out unless you build a Faraday cage around the TV. https://www.t-mobile.com/tvision/tvision-5g https://www.t-mobile.com/tvision/tvision-5g
- TheSpiceIsLife 6y agoIt’s ok, you are allowed to admit you made a mistake.
- rekoil 6y agoWhat was the mistake? There are no options here anymore. You want an OLED? You're getting a smart OLED.
- beervirus 6y agoSmart TVs are cheaper, not more expensive. You didn’t pay for those features—you saved money by having them foisted on you.
- walrus01 6y agoI have a thousand times more confidence that the operating system on a Xbox one or PS4 will remain patched and updated over a multi year time span... Than I do that some weird Android or webOS variant on a TV from Samsung or LG or others will remain safe to connect to the internet. People will say, "yes , but the Xbox or PS4 home screen also shows ads". In my opinion those ads are far less annoying than having an ad on the actual TV. If I want something totally ad free I also have my HTPC connected to the screen. I don't see giving any TVs the wifi password or a direct Ethernet cable any time in the future.
- eulers_secret 6y agoI feel the same way, but there are problems with this method. Especially with the artificial limitations on 4K/HDR content. For example, my PS4 Pro cannot watch Disney Plus in 4K/HDR mode, but my built in TV app can. Another example: 4K on Netflix on a PC - you can't do it (unless using Intel IGPU > kabylake and Edge on Win 10 only). Mac users need to use a Win VM. But my TV app works. It sucks, it really really sucks.
- walrus01 6y agoI might be wrong but I'm fairly certain I've been watching 4k netflix just fine on a HTPC that consists of a ryzen 1500x, geforce 1030 fanless, latest version of Chrome, and windows 10 home. The geforce1030 drivers have the hooks in them for HDPC transport to my home theatre receiver. Chrome has the various DRM software modules in it that keeps Netflix happy. I can definitely tell the difference on a big 4K TV if I toggle the quality setting in the netflix in-browser GUI.
- phonon 6y agoThat's not what Netflix says. https://help.netflix.com/en/node/23931 https://help.netflix.com/en/node/23931 Netflix is available in Ultra HD on Windows computers and tablets. To stream in Ultra HD, you will need: A Windows 10 computer or tablet with the latest Windows updates installed. The Microsoft Edge browser or the Netflix app for Windows 10. A 60Hz 4K capable display (with HDCP 2.2 connection if external display). NOTE: Every monitor connected to your computer must meet these requirements to successfully stream in Ultra HD. Intel's 7th generation Core CPU (i3, i5, or i7 models in the 7xxx or 7Yxx series) or newer, or a NVIDIA GPU that meets these requirements. A plan that supports streaming in Ultra HD. You can check which plan you're currently on at netflix.com/ChangePlan. A steady internet connection speed of 25 megabits per second or higher. Streaming quality set to Auto or High. More information about video quality settings can be found in our Playback Settings article.
- codazoda 6y agoI have a smart TV. I connected it to WiFi for setup and update and then I "forgot" the network. Two weeks later my wife is watching Netflix and I notice it's the TV not my Roku or Apple TV. She swears she didn't configure it. I didn't mention the brand because I haven't gone back in to double check what's happening here.
- xtracto 6y agoHere un mexico some providers tie your accounts to your IP (phone/internet provider has a Netflix like service) so one you login / auth from one device, it will read your ip and save it for other devices.
- namdnay 6y agoThat's what I thought, until I got a Samsung with integrated Netflix, youtube etc. No more hassle with separate boxes and multiple remotes etc, I can use the Samsung minimalist remote (which is both beautiful and really usable - the aluminium one) and jsut switch from one app to another to TV etc There's even a feature where you can directly access a channel's "smart" features from that channel (so if I'm watching Arte I press the red button and get replay episodes etc) And then they force ads down my throat :(
- hadrien01 6y agoThe channel smart features are powered by HbbTV (Arte+7, BBC Red Button, France.tv Salto, etc.), they should work on non-smart TVs that are connected to the Internet.
- namdnay 6y agoah good to know! i didn't know there were intermediate tvs that had internet without being "smart"
- dreamcompiler 6y agoSo build a Pihole. Now you get the best of both worlds: Use the Samsung integrated features but no ads.
- grishka 6y agoI've read that you can get a non-smart and more reliable TV if you call it "digital signage".
- ohazi 6y agoAt four times the price.
- gambiting 6y agoYes, I think I absolutely do need a smart TV. The ability to just switch on netflix or even a DLNA client directly on my TV without having to switch on another device is worth the little bit of bullshit that comes with it. I've had the same "smart" Bravia TV for 7 years now, and it still works absolutely fine, the Netflix client runs just the same, the DLNA streaming works the same.....the biggest disappointment was when PlaystationNow support was discontinued, I could no longer play games using just the TV and a bluetooth controller.
- barrkel 6y agoHmm. We use an Amazon Fire Stick connected to a projector. The projector is dumb. It has its own remote, but we don't need to use it; the recent Fire Stick remotes understand how to control the volume and how to turn it off, and that's all you need. HDMI-CEC means the Fire Stick turns on the projector when you click on it, so you don't need to turn on multiple devices.
- golem14 6y agoHow does one use a DLNA client on a Samsung tv? I can only find a list of useless apps (other than Netflix, YouTube)
- dehrmann 6y ago> NVidia Shield Have you seen all the ads on an Nvidia Shield? So now I have to also install LineageOS?
- AdamJacobMuller 6y agoI have my LG TVs hooked up so I can power on/off them via ethernet (with SimpleControl). Besides that their access to the internet is blocked on my firewall. I don't want nor need "smart" features and I would have paid more for the same panel with fewer features.
- yummypaint 6y agoThis is what i did years ago when i got my samsung smart TV to use as a monitor. Still havent agreed to the EULA. Unfortunately the firmware it came with is total shit. Sometimes there are straight up errors in whats being displayed, or it wont lock to signals, and the tv has to be restarted. There is of course no way to fix any of this without permanently enabling ads, telemetry, and audio spying as far as i know, assuming they ever fixed the firmware. Ill never buy another samsung product, i dont care how cost effective it appears in the moment. It's hard to put a price on the peace of mind of using devices that aren't actively hostile to me. You also have to be vigilant about other people boneheadedly picking up your remote and consenting to the agreements so they can use the hobbled internal processor to watch netflix with ads. When guests are using the TV there basically has to be a mini PSA about only using the attached computer and how insidious samsung is. Really great word of mouth advertising for them...
- toohotatopic 6y agoThis should come down to profit margins. If TVs are sold for production costs or at a loss, then all profits come from advertising. If buyers go for sticker prices and $10 make or break a deal, then it doesn't matter if the product costs $1000. If somebody can offer a similar product for $990, people will buy that. With all the features and options, what else but price is relevant unless you have time to study the subject?
- TheSpiceIsLife 6y agoThat’s nieve. Does it match your decor? I think you’d be surprised by the number of people who buy something that’s in their price range but also matches their idea of what that thing should look like. Style.
- rootusrootus 6y agoAt the $1000 point, most buyers are definitely focused on the price. Buyers who care about style are spending $2000+ on their fridge, and that's just for the low level stuff you find at a big box store.
- TheSpiceIsLife 6y agoWaddayamean? From my perspective, a $1000 screen is a significant purchase. Hell, spending $500 on an appliance gives me pause. Mind you, you’d probably laugh out loud if you saw what us locally employed (ie, not FIFO) tradespeople get paid.
- rootusrootus 6y agoI'm sure it varies, of course, but where I live a thousand bucks will get you a bog standard side-by-side fridge of middling quality. Functional, but not the least bit exciting. Everyone seems to want french door models these days, and that pretty much instantly pushes you to the $2000 range. We have a french door fridge and I loathe it. Someone told me to skip that and get a bottom freezer single-door, but my wife really wanted the french door. We regret it. The recommendation to avoid was spot-on.
- lotsofpulp 6y ago>Do the vast majority of people just not care? Considering they have the most market share, people do not care enough about the malware they install versus the lower price offered on the malware ridden TVs.
- mfer 6y agoI wonder how much a refrigerator costs to design and manufacture that just keeps things cold. That might help with margins.
- owenmarshall 6y agoBare-bones refrigerators are available: https://products.geappliances.com/appliance/hotpoint/top-freezer-refrigerators https://products.geappliances.com/appliance/hotpoint/top-fre... The margins for appliance manufacturers are tight. 3-5% is not uncommon. Features like wifi connectivity and premium finish are how you start increasing profitability but even then you aren't making significant profit per unit until you hit the very top product lines – think Samsung's Dacor or GE's Monogram. Any proposed change to the appliance goes through a cost/benefit analysis that is more rigorous than anything I've seen in a software company: if your BOM or cost to assemble go up by pennies you have to convince executives that either cost of quality goes down to compensate, OR that it will drive sales. Water filters, on the other hand, have margins that have 2 or even 3 zeros at the end.
- karatestomp 6y agoFridges are one of those product categories for which the magic of the free market misses completely for me. I want a basic fridge with maybe $200, tops (manufacturing & material cost) of improvements to things that actually matter (castors on drawers make a huge difference for the feel of fridge drawers, for example) + non-ugly exterior. Counter depth (so less material!). No ice maker, no water integrated, none of that stuff. Certainly no damn screens. Just a compressor with a cabinet. A good and useful layout, or "UX" if you prefer (this adds no cost, or very little, past the initial design, which can be re-used indefinitely). I will pay a $600-800 premium over the most basic model for this, retail. Call it $1500. ... but in fact the nice parts I want aren't available except on very "high-end" models that start at like $2.5k from a dent-n-ding outlet (let alone full retail) with tons of extra crap, and you pay significantly more for counter depth in most cases (I guess economies of scale make them solidly 10% more expensive, despite the savings in materials?). It sucks, I just want a basic fridge that looks & feels nice and doesn't stick out into my kitchen like some kind of menacing mechanical monster, but is not a rip-off. Pretty much doesn't exist. [EDIT] actually it's fair to say that "nice, simple, and reasonably priced for the extras it takes to achieve 'nice'" is a category markets often fail to deliver for me. They seem to be great at delivering cheap and crappy, cheap and kinda OK (think: all non-Ikea flat-pack furniture for the former, Ikea for the latter), expensive and crappy, and expensive and actually good. There's a middle-market that seemingly never gets served and sends me looking for antiques, when possible. I suspect the reason for these outcomes boil down to information asymmetry, like lots of problems with markets.
- mc32 6y agoIt almost feels like slowly but almost surely those lcd refrigerators will turn into “gas station tv” but for pantry items and people will accept it.
- eveningcoffee 6y agoUse whitelists.
- aquabeagle 6y agoI think we're supposed to call them "allowlists" now.
- eveningcoffee 6y agoGood point. Did not find a synonym.
- thejynxed 6y agoEyeroll.
- drtillberg 6y ago>> Why are companies driving away people who make multi-thousand dollar purchases with scummy behaviour that nets them spare change? I think the problem is you have a VP of this and VP of that, each of whom are tasked to squeeze pennies today via this vertical or that gizmo or else find a new job tomorrow. It's endemic, becoming an entrenched feature of big (U.S.) business. The people in those positions are incentivized to not give two hoots about a $2,000 lost sale eight years from now; they are employed literally to squeeze the extra $20 from replacement filters now. That's it.
- Gravityloss 6y agoReviewers need to pay attention to these new "features". Builtin ads or DRM should be a major point in any review or feature comparison matrix.
- joncrane 6y agoI understand that the vast majority of reviewers on the internet, and certainly the sites that come up first in search engine results, are compensated by the manufacturers via kickbacks. I believe it's colloquially known as a "racket."
- hunter2_ 6y agoIs there any good work being done on solving this problem? "Verified buyer" exists on larger sites but it doesn't solve for kickbacks. Looking only at reviews written by people closer to you socially also doesn't work since at that critical proximity there aren't enough reviews.
- prepend 6y agoConsumerreports is still independent and really useful, I think.
- softawre 6y agoThey do. I was well aware of the ad stuff on my last Samsung TV before I bought it, since most review sites mentioned it.
- bryanrasmussen 6y agoI figure the reasoning is this: soon everyone will do this, by the time someone who had this happen to them and got mad gets around to buying another fridge it will be industry wide procedure - therefore they will accept it (or do without a fridge) and then they will buy our product based on some other calculation than if it has the mal-feature that every other fridge will have.
- greggman3 6y agoGame consoles? They aren't cheap and I can't think off the top of my head what the consumables are for a game console. Certainly not the games any more than blurays are for bluray players. Switch uses standard USB-C etc. You can use 3rd party network adaptors, micro-sd cards, etc. PS4 takes standard 3rd party hard drives, usb-sticks, ... I guess I'm not saying how this fits
- fuzzer37 6y agoConsole makers tend to lose money on console sales [0], but they then are able to make it up in selling things like (but not limited to): Online Access (Nintendo Online, PSPlus, Xbox gold), Games, and possibly ads, should they choose to display any, [0]: https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/080515/economics-gaming-consoles.asp https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/080515/econo...
- Nextgrid 6y agoConsole manufacturers make money through licensing fees paid by game developers. The consoles themselves are usually sold at or below cost.
- newsclues 6y agoGames Controllers (Licensed accessories) Services (online)
- arkades 6y ago> Why are companies driving away people who make multi-thousand dollar purchases with scummy behaviour that nets them spare change? Because high-margin goods aren't spare change. Look at the razor: I can sell you the razor at cost-plus for $20 on a $19 manufacturing cost. I can sell you each individual razor cartridge at 90% profit for $1. At the end of the year I've sold, say, 5 razors and 50 blades, for a total of $150. On the one hand, the razors made up the bulk of my gross revenue ($100/$150). On the other hand, looking at the actual profit I've generated, $45 came from blades and $5 came from razors - that is, 90% of my profit came from those "pennies" that the razors brought in. If you can strong-arm people into buying high-margin goods, that's a strong bonus to your bottom line, even if the absolute price isn't that high. Let's plug a fridge into those numbers. A nice new GE fridge can be had for something in the vicinity of $800 (sears website is showing me stuff $600-$1000, so let's just split the difference). Amazon has GW RPWFE filters up at $50 a pop. You buy a fridge, what, every ten years? Every twenty? Those filters "should" be replaced every quarter? Let's be generous and say every half a year. Those filters generate the same profit as the fridge at 16 years out, at the same profit margins. At asymmetric profit margins (say, 30% vs. 5%) they've produced profits equal to that of the fridge in a handful of years. These aren't pennies.
- erichurkman 6y agoDon't forget to account for planned obsolescence. If a fridge lasts 10 years, what happens when GE stops producing those filters? You start looking at new fridges. The GE fridge pissed you off, so you upgrade to Fisher & Paykel… turns out they are produced by the same company, so they don't care that GE 'lost' a customer. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haier https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haier )
- kube-system 6y agoYeah, here in the US just about every brand at any big box store is from Whirlpool, Electrolux, or Haier.
- xxpor 6y ago
- coffeefirst 6y agoI suspect there's two parts: 1. GE can only count the dollars it makes from this little scam, not the dollars it lost. It doesn't see the fact that I now resent them (I discovered this "feature" a month ago) and will likely avoid even buying lightbulbs with their logo on them can't factor into their model. 2. These aren't items you replace often, so it will take years for any negative effect to set in, unless the reviews tank.
- at_a_remove 6y agoGood news for you about buying their light bulbs ... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23324898 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23324898
- LatteLazy 6y agoA lot of electronics sell for less than cost and break even/profit based on consumables. PS4s made a loss when they came out and Sony relied on games sales to correct that. The same was true of safety razors and blades 100 years ago and electric razors today. Sadly this means products often arnt designed for you or me (I hate the idea of advertising built into Samsungs TV). But those are the economics in this situation...
- _jal 6y agoI decided that one criteria for expensive things I buy from now on is that unless it is inherent to the function of the object, I will not buy things that depend on the maker as an ongoing operation for functions I care about[1]. Cell phones are the hardest case there, and I'll probably break my rule in that case. But in general, I'm not paying rent on things I already bought, even if that tax is in the form of stupid ads. [1] I'm also not going to play what-about-this-edge-case with quibblers.
- m463 6y agoI was talking to a friend who had worked an a PC oem. People would ask him why they wouldn't offer a linux version. The answer was - it would cost more because their monetization strategy netted something like $60 per machine - which actually made the linux machine more expensive. (this was a couple of years ago, numbers might be different)