5 ms·

The problem, though, is not that trans-rights groups have captured the public mindset. Nor that Mrs. Rowling would be a bigot. The main problem is that the the

by fsloth 6y ago

The problem, though, is not that trans-rights groups have captured the public mindset. Nor that Mrs. Rowling would be a bigot. The main problem is that the the public debate climate has reduced to cultural revolution level of intolerance. It's shocking to the depths the west has sunk to. Simple slogans and actions are offered as a solution to a set of complex problems, and if you don't agree to the message, you are labeled obviously as a Enemy Of The Moral Righteousness and must be flamed to death. This is exactly what the public debate climate was in the soviet states. There is only one accepted truth. And if you question the truth, then you must be a bad person in every other way as well. Since, we all know, there is only right and wrong, black and white, true and false. We know the real world is a simple place, where it suffices to repeat the party line and enjoy a blissful existence knowing you are on the right side of history and anyone who opposes you must be wicked through and through. Or, just, anyone trying to debate anything, really. Since you need opposing viewpoints to form a debate. I'm glad people like Rowling don't stand down in front of the hivemind firing squad but try to maintain the climate of open debate alive. Most people probably won't care one way or the other, but it saddens me our public debate channels give the loudest voice to intolerance and mob mentality driven attacks.

daleharvey 6y ago
> but it saddens me our public debate channels give the loudest voice to intolerance and mob mentality driven attacks. ... As we discuss (on Hacker News) the celebrity with 14.5M twitter followers who decided to arbitrarily join an anti trans campaign ...
- fsloth 6y ago
  She is debating the topic. Are you not allowed to debate a topic anymore without being labeled a campaigner? At what point is a debate turning into a part of a "campaign"? As Mrs. Rowling explains she is not operating out of objective curiosity, but she is debating a topic that raises emotions of fear and suffering in her. Obviously she is not the most objective person to discuss this topic then, and given her wide audience, does indeed raise questions on should she actually contribute to the discussion. But on the other hand for really good results in a discussion, all parties should have a skin in the game, so to speak. Personally the thing I find mostly hard to comprehend are underage persons being allowed a sex change operation. Should you actually allow that? Underage kids are anyway unique and weird in so many ways. So - is this an actual worry? Or is it used as a "think of the children" argument for general anti-trans messaging in general? I have no clue. I'm completely unfamiliar with this topic so I would really love to hear the opinons of anyone who has gone through a sex change operation, minor or adult. Does it make sense to allow minors a sex change operation? Or is this such a fringe topic it should not be brought up in a public debate?
  - daleharvey 6y ago
    This "debate" has been part of a dedicated (and sadly currently successful) campaign to dictate the Scottish Government policy. This isnt a high school debate club where you pick some topic of dispute for fun, this is people in positions of enourmous influence spreading propoganda in order to influence policy that directly harms peoples lives. Pretending that the people with 14.5M followers, regular opinion columns in national papers etc are being "silenced" is part of the propoganda.
  - junke 6y ago
    Sex change operations are not legally possible in most country under a certain age, around 18. For example in Europe: > In thirteen out of twenty-eight Member States, general surgery rules apply as regards the age at which children can request a sex reassignment surgery. In this context, the age requirement for access to medical treatment without the consent of the parents or of a public authority is 18 years in Bulgaria, Cyprus, Greece, France, Hungary, Romania and Slovakia, and 15 years in Slovenia. In the United Kingdom the age requirement ranges from 16 in Scotland to 17 in England and 18 in Wales. In Belgium, Estonia, Germany and Luxembourg the child’s maturity is assessed. (https://fra.europa.eu/en/publication/2017/mapping-minimum-age-requirements/sex-reassignment-surgery https://fra.europa.eu/en/publication/2017/mapping-minimum-ag...) The main medical treatment available is blocking puberty: https://www.gendergp.com/debunking-the-myths-surrounding-puberty-blockers-trans-kids/ https://www.gendergp.com/debunking-the-myths-surrounding-pub... Apart from that, trans children (like all children) need support and ways to express their preferences, their gender identity safely, to avoid psychological trauma. https://www.wpath.org/publications/soc https://www.wpath.org/publications/soc
neuronic 6y ago
You can thank Twitter, Facebook, Tumblr and the like. Discussion online used to be more complex and thoughtful until everything became a 140 character newsfeed entry and that is not just romanticism. People always had certain characteristics and tendencies, good or bad, but nowadays we put them on pedestals. Also, the magnitude of people who are literally too dumb to comprehend even the most basic concepts (e.g. "science is a constant process of knowledge discovery") is far far higher than I would have ever dreamed back before social media gave everyone a platform. I used to think that some people just didn't get the right education or didn't have the same chances but the truth is that a lot of people are just willfully ignorant assholes unwilling to even listen to anyone but their own brain waves. I am fairly young but feel fairly old when I see complete morons on YT or TikTok feeling the need to chime into societal discussions without any foundation. Case in point, a very smart YouTube named "Rezo" has politically upset Germany by "destroying" a political party (CDU, party of Merkel) with a 54min video containing nothing but RESEARCHED AND CITED (!) facts and videos. Like a scientific paper in video form. [1] The responses? "But he has blue hair so fuck him!!!11!" Every shallow Instagram sycophant has an opinion about issues that others studied for decades and got PhDs for it which in itself is fine but becomes absurd when it is expected that their opinion should hold equal weight and value. The modern Internet is absurd in the way it has transformed discussions. It constantly works to erode Western values by elevating fringe groups that would never even find a way to spout their nonsense on any other platform - at least not with the same reach. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Y1lZQsyuSQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Y1lZQsyuSQ
- waterbadger 6y ago
  In regards to the black and white thinking that seems common on the internet I think it’s very important to understand and have compassion for the volume of people who have experienced some form of emotional abuse in their life. How you treat other people is scoped by how you are capable of treating yourself. Developmentally we learn how to treat ourselves from how our parents or caregivers treat us. It’s always useful to remember that people who are judgmental also direct that same lack of acceptance inward in some way. Abuse and developmental trauma are not only the extreme physical or sexual abuse that people might think of. Neglect, inappropriate boundaries and validation being contingent on meeting arbitrary standards has a strong negative impact as well. Often it is important for people to create an “other” and tear them down in order to somehow increase their own self worth in the moment. This is not a real solution to self-esteem so people who do so may have to increase the volume of their behavior over time to try and maintain some baseline sense of “being ok.” People are responsible for their behavior regardless of their life experiences and I’m not saying we should excuse bad behavior. I think it’s very important to remember that the problem is not “dumb people” attacking things because they are “dumb”. Believing this is extremely disempowering and will generate conflicts and alienation between people over time. The idea of “dumb people” is the biggest cultural red herring ever and extremely toxic because when someone is labeled dumb: - There is no point talking to them or listening to them - They are never going to change, they are just a “dumb person” - There is no point trying to understand them better - Calling someone dumb and treating them like a “dumb person” is abusive. That being said people who are stressed out, people who have experienced abuse and are having a flashback (complex ptsd is interesting) have an inhibited pre-frontal cortex. This means reduced “executive function” and basically that it is harder to think. So they might be acting in “dumb” ways. The key is that this inhibition on thinking will go away once their stress levels are better.

by fsloth 6y ago

daleharvey 6y ago

> but it saddens me our public debate channels give the loudest voice to intolerance and mob mentality driven attacks. ... As we discuss (on Hacker News) the celebrity with 14.5M twitter followers who decided to arbitrarily join an anti trans campaign ...

fsloth 6y ago
She is debating the topic. Are you not allowed to debate a topic anymore without being labeled a campaigner? At what point is a debate turning into a part of a "campaign"? As Mrs. Rowling explains she is not operating out of objective curiosity, but she is debating a topic that raises emotions of fear and suffering in her. Obviously she is not the most objective person to discuss this topic then, and given her wide audience, does indeed raise questions on should she actually contribute to the discussion. But on the other hand for really good results in a discussion, all parties should have a skin in the game, so to speak. Personally the thing I find mostly hard to comprehend are underage persons being allowed a sex change operation. Should you actually allow that? Underage kids are anyway unique and weird in so many ways. So - is this an actual worry? Or is it used as a "think of the children" argument for general anti-trans messaging in general? I have no clue. I'm completely unfamiliar with this topic so I would really love to hear the opinons of anyone who has gone through a sex change operation, minor or adult. Does it make sense to allow minors a sex change operation? Or is this such a fringe topic it should not be brought up in a public debate?
- daleharvey 6y ago
  This "debate" has been part of a dedicated (and sadly currently successful) campaign to dictate the Scottish Government policy. This isnt a high school debate club where you pick some topic of dispute for fun, this is people in positions of enourmous influence spreading propoganda in order to influence policy that directly harms peoples lives. Pretending that the people with 14.5M followers, regular opinion columns in national papers etc are being "silenced" is part of the propoganda.
- junke 6y ago
  Sex change operations are not legally possible in most country under a certain age, around 18. For example in Europe: > In thirteen out of twenty-eight Member States, general surgery rules apply as regards the age at which children can request a sex reassignment surgery. In this context, the age requirement for access to medical treatment without the consent of the parents or of a public authority is 18 years in Bulgaria, Cyprus, Greece, France, Hungary, Romania and Slovakia, and 15 years in Slovenia. In the United Kingdom the age requirement ranges from 16 in Scotland to 17 in England and 18 in Wales. In Belgium, Estonia, Germany and Luxembourg the child’s maturity is assessed. (https://fra.europa.eu/en/publication/2017/mapping-minimum-age-requirements/sex-reassignment-surgery https://fra.europa.eu/en/publication/2017/mapping-minimum-ag...) The main medical treatment available is blocking puberty: https://www.gendergp.com/debunking-the-myths-surrounding-puberty-blockers-trans-kids/ https://www.gendergp.com/debunking-the-myths-surrounding-pub... Apart from that, trans children (like all children) need support and ways to express their preferences, their gender identity safely, to avoid psychological trauma. https://www.wpath.org/publications/soc https://www.wpath.org/publications/soc

neuronic 6y ago

You can thank Twitter, Facebook, Tumblr and the like. Discussion online used to be more complex and thoughtful until everything became a 140 character newsfeed entry and that is not just romanticism. People always had certain characteristics and tendencies, good or bad, but nowadays we put them on pedestals. Also, the magnitude of people who are literally too dumb to comprehend even the most basic concepts (e.g. "science is a constant process of knowledge discovery") is far far higher than I would have ever dreamed back before social media gave everyone a platform. I used to think that some people just didn't get the right education or didn't have the same chances but the truth is that a lot of people are just willfully ignorant assholes unwilling to even listen to anyone but their own brain waves. I am fairly young but feel fairly old when I see complete morons on YT or TikTok feeling the need to chime into societal discussions without any foundation. Case in point, a very smart YouTube named "Rezo" has politically upset Germany by "destroying" a political party (CDU, party of Merkel) with a 54min video containing nothing but RESEARCHED AND CITED (!) facts and videos. Like a scientific paper in video form. [1] The responses? "But he has blue hair so fuck him!!!11!" Every shallow Instagram sycophant has an opinion about issues that others studied for decades and got PhDs for it which in itself is fine but becomes absurd when it is expected that their opinion should hold equal weight and value. The modern Internet is absurd in the way it has transformed discussions. It constantly works to erode Western values by elevating fringe groups that would never even find a way to spout their nonsense on any other platform - at least not with the same reach. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Y1lZQsyuSQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Y1lZQsyuSQ

waterbadger 6y ago
In regards to the black and white thinking that seems common on the internet I think it’s very important to understand and have compassion for the volume of people who have experienced some form of emotional abuse in their life. How you treat other people is scoped by how you are capable of treating yourself. Developmentally we learn how to treat ourselves from how our parents or caregivers treat us. It’s always useful to remember that people who are judgmental also direct that same lack of acceptance inward in some way. Abuse and developmental trauma are not only the extreme physical or sexual abuse that people might think of. Neglect, inappropriate boundaries and validation being contingent on meeting arbitrary standards has a strong negative impact as well. Often it is important for people to create an “other” and tear them down in order to somehow increase their own self worth in the moment. This is not a real solution to self-esteem so people who do so may have to increase the volume of their behavior over time to try and maintain some baseline sense of “being ok.” People are responsible for their behavior regardless of their life experiences and I’m not saying we should excuse bad behavior. I think it’s very important to remember that the problem is not “dumb people” attacking things because they are “dumb”. Believing this is extremely disempowering and will generate conflicts and alienation between people over time. The idea of “dumb people” is the biggest cultural red herring ever and extremely toxic because when someone is labeled dumb: - There is no point talking to them or listening to them - They are never going to change, they are just a “dumb person” - There is no point trying to understand them better - Calling someone dumb and treating them like a “dumb person” is abusive. That being said people who are stressed out, people who have experienced abuse and are having a flashback (complex ptsd is interesting) have an inhibited pre-frontal cortex. This means reduced “executive function” and basically that it is harder to think. So they might be acting in “dumb” ways. The key is that this inhibition on thinking will go away once their stress levels are better.