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Alpha Go Zero inspired the development of an open source version, Leela Go Zero which Leela Chess Zero is forked from by the same guy who made Stock Fish. Lots

Alpha Go Zero inspired the development of an open source version, Leela Go Zero which Leela Chess Zero is forked from by the same guy who made Stock Fish. Lots of people contribute what I imagine are amounts of CPU Power/money to the Leela Chess Zero project[1]. Would love to see Alpha Chess vs Leela Chess. [1] https://training.lczero.org/ https://training.lczero.org/ [edit] I've caused terrible confusion by melding Leela Go and Leela Chess when Leela Chess was originally forked from Leela Go and that's basically when similarities end. Edited for a bit more clarity.

29athrowaway 6y ago
I think KataGo is stronger than Leela Zero. https://github.com/lightvector/KataGo https://github.com/lightvector/KataGo
- thomasahle 6y ago
  I was suspecting another boring clone, but Kata looks like a cool project with nice new ideas! Thanks for sharing
  - mafuy 6y ago
    It is indeed independend and has a lot of nice ideas and theory contributions. It turned up after I stopped actively competing in computer Go, so I can't tell how strong it is. It certainly has a lot of potential and I'd probably pick it as a base to work from nowadays.
  - runarberg 6y ago
    KataGo is also cool for those of us that use bots to review our human games because it has score estimator. With Leela a 0.5 win and a 20.5 win in the endgame can both amount to 99.5% chance of winning, but to us (amateur) humans that is not true.
    - 29athrowaway 6y ago
      There is a Go client that is distributed with Kata Go and was built for that purpose: https://github.com/sanderland/katrain https://github.com/sanderland/katrain and is distributed as a pip package, making it very frictionless to install. With a tool like this, instead of waiting for a Go pro to visit our local Go club to review our kifu, I can have my game reviewed move by move until the end (not only the first n moves). I can still have questions for pros, but they would be more specific. Now, playing a superhuman intelligence bot can be unfun. Now matter how much effort you put in a move, you will just keep making your outcome worse with every move. Another important use-case is that the AI can also tell you if a joseki is actually joseki, and how to refute a bad joseki move.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
nABHSZQPQ 6y ago
There are several people who wrote Stockfish, including Tord Romstad, whose Glaurung was the initial base for Stockfish. Glaurung was pretty innovative at the time.
bonzini 6y ago
As far as I know Gian-Carlo Pascutto is not among the original authors of Stockfish, though he did work on chess engines. Perhaps you were confused because Leela Chess Zero was forked from Leela Zero (neural network Go engine by Pascutto) but it includes Stockfish's move generation logic.
- jacquesm 6y ago
  He's also well known for his absolutely amazing work on audio fingerprinting.
- est31 6y ago
  I think OP was referring to Gary Linscott who has made major contributions to both Stockfish and made an adaptation of Leela Zero to Chess, now living under the Leela Chess Zero Github org but apparently a different adaptation is now the officially sanctioned one, at least his commits don't show up in the new lc0 repo. https://github.com/official-stockfish/Stockfish/graphs/contributors https://github.com/official-stockfish/Stockfish/graphs/contr... https://github.com/LeelaChessZero/lczero/graphs/contributors https://github.com/LeelaChessZero/lczero/graphs/contributors
Intermernet 6y ago
I'd love to see some CPU/GPU/TPU donations to @chewxy's "agogo"[1] which is AlphaGo (AlphaZero) re-implemented in Go as a sort of proof of concept / demo of Gorgonia[2]. [1]: https://github.com/gorgonia/agogo https://github.com/gorgonia/agogo [2]: https://github.com/gorgonia/gorgonia https://github.com/gorgonia/gorgonia
mikorym 6y ago
AFAIK Garry Kasparov to this day does computer&human vs. computer&human chess research, and it's far from a solved problem.
- nl 6y ago
  If by "it's far from a solved problem" you mean that chess isn't a solved game that's true. But Kasparov and others have given up on the idea that a human provides any unique insight into chess anymore. Computers are just better.
  - sukilot 6y ago
    That's absurd. He works on human+chess research. He obviously hasn't given up on human insight. What he has given up on is a single human beating a computer.
    - nl 6y ago
      I haven't seen any recent (last 5 years or so) articles by him showing he's doing any work on it. There's a few recent articles where he talks about how humans should work with machine learning, but nothing specific. When he recently came out of chess retirement he didn't talk about it at all in either 2017 or 2019: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/06/king-back-chess-legend-garry-kasparov-comes-retirement/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/06/king-back-chess-... https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/sep/06/chess-leonard-barden-garry-kasparov-loses-to-fabiano-caruana https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/sep/06/chess-leonard-... There's nothing recent about him on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_chess https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_chess
    - thelean12 6y ago
      Can a human + computer beat just a computer? I can't imagine a human doing anything besides making things worse or even.
      - scheveningen 6y ago
glinscott 6y ago
The great thing about these community driven efforts is that it is indeed feasible to reproduce these super expensive efforts. I'm a bystander now, as new maintainers have taken over, and they are doing a fantastic job pushing things forward. This is also how Stockfish got to be the #1 engine. By being open source, and having the testing framework (https://tests.stockfishchess.org https://tests.stockfishchess.org) use donated computer time from volunteers, it was able to make fast, continuous progress. It flipped what was previously a disadvantage (if you are open source, everyone can copy your ideas), into an advantage - as you can't easily set up a fishtest like system with an engine that isn't already developed in public.

29athrowaway 6y ago

I think KataGo is stronger than Leela Zero. https://github.com/lightvector/KataGo https://github.com/lightvector/KataGo

thomasahle 6y ago
I was suspecting another boring clone, but Kata looks like a cool project with nice new ideas! Thanks for sharing
- mafuy 6y ago
  It is indeed independend and has a lot of nice ideas and theory contributions. It turned up after I stopped actively competing in computer Go, so I can't tell how strong it is. It certainly has a lot of potential and I'd probably pick it as a base to work from nowadays.
- runarberg 6y ago
  KataGo is also cool for those of us that use bots to review our human games because it has score estimator. With Leela a 0.5 win and a 20.5 win in the endgame can both amount to 99.5% chance of winning, but to us (amateur) humans that is not true.
  - 29athrowaway 6y ago
    There is a Go client that is distributed with Kata Go and was built for that purpose: https://github.com/sanderland/katrain https://github.com/sanderland/katrain and is distributed as a pip package, making it very frictionless to install. With a tool like this, instead of waiting for a Go pro to visit our local Go club to review our kifu, I can have my game reviewed move by move until the end (not only the first n moves). I can still have questions for pros, but they would be more specific. Now, playing a superhuman intelligence bot can be unfun. Now matter how much effort you put in a move, you will just keep making your outcome worse with every move. Another important use-case is that the AI can also tell you if a joseki is actually joseki, and how to refute a bad joseki move.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

nABHSZQPQ 6y ago

There are several people who wrote Stockfish, including Tord Romstad, whose Glaurung was the initial base for Stockfish. Glaurung was pretty innovative at the time.

bonzini 6y ago

As far as I know Gian-Carlo Pascutto is not among the original authors of Stockfish, though he did work on chess engines. Perhaps you were confused because Leela Chess Zero was forked from Leela Zero (neural network Go engine by Pascutto) but it includes Stockfish's move generation logic.

jacquesm 6y ago
He's also well known for his absolutely amazing work on audio fingerprinting.
est31 6y ago
I think OP was referring to Gary Linscott who has made major contributions to both Stockfish and made an adaptation of Leela Zero to Chess, now living under the Leela Chess Zero Github org but apparently a different adaptation is now the officially sanctioned one, at least his commits don't show up in the new lc0 repo. https://github.com/official-stockfish/Stockfish/graphs/contributors https://github.com/official-stockfish/Stockfish/graphs/contr... https://github.com/LeelaChessZero/lczero/graphs/contributors https://github.com/LeelaChessZero/lczero/graphs/contributors

Intermernet 6y ago

I'd love to see some CPU/GPU/TPU donations to @chewxy's "agogo"[1] which is AlphaGo (AlphaZero) re-implemented in Go as a sort of proof of concept / demo of Gorgonia[2]. [1]: https://github.com/gorgonia/agogo https://github.com/gorgonia/agogo [2]: https://github.com/gorgonia/gorgonia https://github.com/gorgonia/gorgonia

mikorym 6y ago

AFAIK Garry Kasparov to this day does computer&human vs. computer&human chess research, and it's far from a solved problem.

nl 6y ago
If by "it's far from a solved problem" you mean that chess isn't a solved game that's true. But Kasparov and others have given up on the idea that a human provides any unique insight into chess anymore. Computers are just better.
- sukilot 6y ago
  That's absurd. He works on human+chess research. He obviously hasn't given up on human insight. What he has given up on is a single human beating a computer.
  - nl 6y ago
    I haven't seen any recent (last 5 years or so) articles by him showing he's doing any work on it. There's a few recent articles where he talks about how humans should work with machine learning, but nothing specific. When he recently came out of chess retirement he didn't talk about it at all in either 2017 or 2019: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/06/king-back-chess-legend-garry-kasparov-comes-retirement/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/06/king-back-chess-... https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/sep/06/chess-leonard-barden-garry-kasparov-loses-to-fabiano-caruana https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/sep/06/chess-leonard-... There's nothing recent about him on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_chess https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_chess
  - thelean12 6y ago
    Can a human + computer beat just a computer? I can't imagine a human doing anything besides making things worse or even.
    - scheveningen 6y ago

glinscott 6y ago

The great thing about these community driven efforts is that it is indeed feasible to reproduce these super expensive efforts. I'm a bystander now, as new maintainers have taken over, and they are doing a fantastic job pushing things forward. This is also how Stockfish got to be the #1 engine. By being open source, and having the testing framework (https://tests.stockfishchess.org https://tests.stockfishchess.org) use donated computer time from volunteers, it was able to make fast, continuous progress. It flipped what was previously a disadvantage (if you are open source, everyone can copy your ideas), into an advantage - as you can't easily set up a fishtest like system with an engine that isn't already developed in public.