6 ms·

So after applying to YC today (worried that I borked my app) I had the following idea - which is an evolutionary idea from the one I applied to YC with, I dont

by phlux 16y ago

So after applying to YC today (worried that I borked my app) I had the following idea - which is an evolutionary idea from the one I applied to YC with, I dont know if this is possible - but I want to throw it out to HN: I would like to see mobile end-to-end secure communications apps that allow for users to have completely encrypted message passing. I had the following idea - please tell me if this would work: You have a distributed truecrypt file system with a client that the users run on their device, and intermediate cloud storage. Each user device is a "folder" on the file system - messages are effectively truecrypt encrypted files that gave saved out to the remote folder that == the recipient. The system would notify you that you have a new file that has been pushed to your folder - you can then decrypt and read it. However - I feel that the weakness would be in the required key/passwd to open the files -- this might not be securable. It may require that folders between two users have a known password on each eand - and that for every contact/recipient you would have to have a separate key (they could be the same value, but still separate) thus a communication looks like this [typed mesage] --> [truecrypt'ed file] --> [to: folder] --> [routing engine/store and forward] --> [from: folder] --> [truecrypt decrypt by user] --> [user reads message] But in a mobile environment... Anyway - half baked stream-of-thought idea... Why would this not work?

Splines 16y ago
I think you're trying too hard. There are existing protocols (S/MIME, PGP, Jabber, etc.) for transferring messages in a secure manner. I'd pick the one that fits your scenario and wrap it up in a shiny app. AFAIK, there are several IM apps that could support encryption, but I don't think they are actually doing so (and if they are, they aren't advertising it). As it is, end-end secure communications is not (I think) on anyone's feature bullet-list.
- phlux 16y ago
  You may be right, however one advantage of this method is that any messages and files are seen as exactly the same: a secure truecrypt encrypted file transfer. No differentiation between a txt or file...
  - biot 16y ago
    Truecrypt is a container for storing a collection of files. Unless you're interested in the deniability aspects of Truecrypt where an alternate passphrase yields decoy data, off-the-shelf SSL with sufficiently large keys is more than adequate to secure the transport layer. I suspect your biggest challenge there would revolve around key authentication to prevent MITM attacks.
  - jerf 16y ago
    In the context of this discussion, you are talking about creating a crypto solution that prevents the NSA from sniffing your customers. Not a casual packet sniffer, the NSA. This is not the time to be running off and implementing your own crypto!
- asharp 16y ago
  eh, there exist plenty of things that are nice and shiny. I can take pidgin and OTR and with about three minutes worth of "You should click here", have it set up easily enough that even a complete non techy can use it. The problem is 1) It requires installation and 2) People don't know it exists. (Strangely enough, once it's installed i've never had anybody move back, mostly as pidgin is a fair amount nicer to use then MSN)
trotsky 16y ago
the issue is that the client runtime environment is poisoned as well
- phlux 16y ago
  Suspecting as much
  - trotsky 16y ago
    http://vimeo.com/11303353 http://vimeo.com/11303353
    - Estragon 16y ago
      Not sure what your point is, here. I listened to it, and it was very interesting, but the speaker has actually implemented encrypted communications on Android, so he clearly isn't too worried about it being poisoned.
      - x09 16y ago
        Did we listen to the same talk? He is a practitioner in the field of security ("choice", "society"). OP: many thanks for the link. The problem of the compromised platform is an interesting one. A programmable dongle would address the compromised host platform. (Used to be a JVM on a chip dongle out there back in late 90s... just run on that and treat your pc as hostile.)
      - trotsky 16y ago
        I'm not sure there is one perfect 100% answer for that question, but I might suggest "that was then, this is now?" https://twitter.com/#!/moxie__/status/48185775111684096 https://twitter.com/#!/moxie__/status/48185775111684096 It is probably worth noting that the speaker (and tweeter) has had some significant delays in the last year while clearing customs.
        Estragon 16y ago
mburns 16y ago
Freenet, Phantom or Tor. Pick one and make it easier for people to use. Designing a whole new system isn't what we need, a "just works" system is.
- pyre 16y ago
  How do you know that the NSA isn't listening to those? It would seem more appropriate to make public-key encryption easier to use. There are already well-defined ways to use it with email, and there's OTR for IM that could be applied to multiple protocols. Granted, only the contents of the communications are hidden in these cases, but that's a big step forwards.
  - davidandgoliath 16y ago
    Everyone is listening to TOR, always ensure that encryption is in use. Always ensure encryption is in use anyways with anything important.
    - marshray 16y ago
      Furthermore, always ensure authentication is in use with anything encrypted.
    - sitmack 16y ago
      Every spy organization on the planet is running tor exit nodes.
  - khafra 16y ago
    I'm sure the NSA is listening to Freenet, but it doesn't matter. That's the advantage of Freenet. Among the disadvantages of Freenet are that it's incredibly slow, difficult to find content on, and cannot access content on the regular internet.
- sabat 16y ago
  I know of Freenet and Tor, but haven't heard of Phantom. Because the word 'phantom' returns a huge number of irrelevant Google results, I haven't been able to find the project. Care to throw us a pointer?
asciilifeform 16y ago
You will have a "car accident." Well, actually you won't, but only because you will "listen to reason" when some well-dressed uninvited guests come over for an evening chat. Call me mad, but do you ever wonder why there is no consumer hardware PGP telephone?
- pdenya 16y ago
  This phone doesn't exist because there's not a market for it. I definitely wouldn't buy that. I, like a lot of others, don't have anything to hide from the government so even though I oppose the wire-tapping i'm not going to inconvenience myself to keep arbitrary data and idle chat secure.
  - asciilifeform 16y ago
    We'll meet in the labor camps one day and have a good laugh at each other's expense.
    - sabat 16y ago
      As if they'd let you live.
- viraptor 16y ago
  > do you ever wonder why there is no consumer hardware PGP telephone? Not on the analogue phone. But you can easily get a TLS-enabled or ZRTP-enabled hardware or software VoIP phone. Many vpbx providers will also provide you with a vpn tunnel endpoint if you ask about it often enough. Also, since the analogue phone PSTN interface is pretty trivial to handle, there are multitude of analogue encryption boxes which work as an adapter to the line. Plug & play. You could even use a pc to compress the voice on one side, encrypt, send over an established modem connection and decrypt on the other side. You don't need the analogue phone itself to do that at all.
  - asciilifeform 16y ago
    > Not on the analogue phone. And not on a consumer cell phone, either. > But you can easily get a TLS-enabled or ZRTP-enabled hardware or software VoIP phone. In theory, arbitrarily strong/usable encryption products can be marketed within the USA. In practice, from this list: A) Usable by non-experts (requires no software fiddling, hardware mix-and-match, or other wastes of time) B) Based on uncrackable/de-facto uncrackable cryptosystem (One-time pad, Public Key - respectively) C) Affordable by / marketed to ordinary people We are permitted to choose only TWO. >...the analogue phone PSTN interface is pretty trivial to handle, there are multitude of analogue encryption boxes which work as an adapter to the line. Analog "scramblers" are a joke. Any seriously-interested party can crack any and all of them without breaking a sweat. >...use a pc to compress the voice on one side, encrypt, send over an established modem connection... Sure, you can use a PC. But if you package this up as a pure-hardware solution usable by anyone who already knows how to use a telephone, certain people will take steps to ensure that your product does not stay on the market. I do not know what the penalty is for violating the "gentleman's agreement" between the NSA and the electronics industry. But I would not care to find out.

by phlux 16y ago

Splines 16y ago

I think you're trying too hard. There are existing protocols (S/MIME, PGP, Jabber, etc.) for transferring messages in a secure manner. I'd pick the one that fits your scenario and wrap it up in a shiny app. AFAIK, there are several IM apps that could support encryption, but I don't think they are actually doing so (and if they are, they aren't advertising it). As it is, end-end secure communications is not (I think) on anyone's feature bullet-list.

phlux 16y ago
You may be right, however one advantage of this method is that any messages and files are seen as exactly the same: a secure truecrypt encrypted file transfer. No differentiation between a txt or file...
- biot 16y ago
  Truecrypt is a container for storing a collection of files. Unless you're interested in the deniability aspects of Truecrypt where an alternate passphrase yields decoy data, off-the-shelf SSL with sufficiently large keys is more than adequate to secure the transport layer. I suspect your biggest challenge there would revolve around key authentication to prevent MITM attacks.
- jerf 16y ago
  In the context of this discussion, you are talking about creating a crypto solution that prevents the NSA from sniffing your customers. Not a casual packet sniffer, the NSA. This is not the time to be running off and implementing your own crypto!
asharp 16y ago
eh, there exist plenty of things that are nice and shiny. I can take pidgin and OTR and with about three minutes worth of "You should click here", have it set up easily enough that even a complete non techy can use it. The problem is 1) It requires installation and 2) People don't know it exists. (Strangely enough, once it's installed i've never had anybody move back, mostly as pidgin is a fair amount nicer to use then MSN)

trotsky 16y ago

the issue is that the client runtime environment is poisoned as well

phlux 16y ago
Suspecting as much
- trotsky 16y ago
  http://vimeo.com/11303353 http://vimeo.com/11303353
  - Estragon 16y ago
    Not sure what your point is, here. I listened to it, and it was very interesting, but the speaker has actually implemented encrypted communications on Android, so he clearly isn't too worried about it being poisoned.
    - x09 16y ago
      Did we listen to the same talk? He is a practitioner in the field of security ("choice", "society"). OP: many thanks for the link. The problem of the compromised platform is an interesting one. A programmable dongle would address the compromised host platform. (Used to be a JVM on a chip dongle out there back in late 90s... just run on that and treat your pc as hostile.)
    - trotsky 16y ago
      I'm not sure there is one perfect 100% answer for that question, but I might suggest "that was then, this is now?" https://twitter.com/#!/moxie__/status/48185775111684096 https://twitter.com/#!/moxie__/status/48185775111684096 It is probably worth noting that the speaker (and tweeter) has had some significant delays in the last year while clearing customs.
      - Estragon 16y ago

mburns 16y ago

Freenet, Phantom or Tor. Pick one and make it easier for people to use. Designing a whole new system isn't what we need, a "just works" system is.

pyre 16y ago
How do you know that the NSA isn't listening to those? It would seem more appropriate to make public-key encryption easier to use. There are already well-defined ways to use it with email, and there's OTR for IM that could be applied to multiple protocols. Granted, only the contents of the communications are hidden in these cases, but that's a big step forwards.
- davidandgoliath 16y ago
  Everyone is listening to TOR, always ensure that encryption is in use. Always ensure encryption is in use anyways with anything important.
  - marshray 16y ago
    Furthermore, always ensure authentication is in use with anything encrypted.
  - sitmack 16y ago
    Every spy organization on the planet is running tor exit nodes.
- khafra 16y ago
  I'm sure the NSA is listening to Freenet, but it doesn't matter. That's the advantage of Freenet. Among the disadvantages of Freenet are that it's incredibly slow, difficult to find content on, and cannot access content on the regular internet.
sabat 16y ago
I know of Freenet and Tor, but haven't heard of Phantom. Because the word 'phantom' returns a huge number of irrelevant Google results, I haven't been able to find the project. Care to throw us a pointer?

asciilifeform 16y ago

You will have a "car accident." Well, actually you won't, but only because you will "listen to reason" when some well-dressed uninvited guests come over for an evening chat. Call me mad, but do you ever wonder why there is no consumer hardware PGP telephone?

pdenya 16y ago
This phone doesn't exist because there's not a market for it. I definitely wouldn't buy that. I, like a lot of others, don't have anything to hide from the government so even though I oppose the wire-tapping i'm not going to inconvenience myself to keep arbitrary data and idle chat secure.
- asciilifeform 16y ago
  We'll meet in the labor camps one day and have a good laugh at each other's expense.
  - sabat 16y ago
    As if they'd let you live.
viraptor 16y ago
> do you ever wonder why there is no consumer hardware PGP telephone? Not on the analogue phone. But you can easily get a TLS-enabled or ZRTP-enabled hardware or software VoIP phone. Many vpbx providers will also provide you with a vpn tunnel endpoint if you ask about it often enough. Also, since the analogue phone PSTN interface is pretty trivial to handle, there are multitude of analogue encryption boxes which work as an adapter to the line. Plug & play. You could even use a pc to compress the voice on one side, encrypt, send over an established modem connection and decrypt on the other side. You don't need the analogue phone itself to do that at all.
- asciilifeform 16y ago
  > Not on the analogue phone. And not on a consumer cell phone, either. > But you can easily get a TLS-enabled or ZRTP-enabled hardware or software VoIP phone. In theory, arbitrarily strong/usable encryption products can be marketed within the USA. In practice, from this list: A) Usable by non-experts (requires no software fiddling, hardware mix-and-match, or other wastes of time) B) Based on uncrackable/de-facto uncrackable cryptosystem (One-time pad, Public Key - respectively) C) Affordable by / marketed to ordinary people We are permitted to choose only TWO. >...the analogue phone PSTN interface is pretty trivial to handle, there are multitude of analogue encryption boxes which work as an adapter to the line. Analog "scramblers" are a joke. Any seriously-interested party can crack any and all of them without breaking a sweat. >...use a pc to compress the voice on one side, encrypt, send over an established modem connection... Sure, you can use a PC. But if you package this up as a pure-hardware solution usable by anyone who already knows how to use a telephone, certain people will take steps to ensure that your product does not stay on the market. I do not know what the penalty is for violating the "gentleman's agreement" between the NSA and the electronics industry. But I would not care to find out.