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True that - it shows brutal discrimination against all US citizens since foreigners get twice as many PhD's as all of US combined /s. Getting PHD is grueling l

True that - it shows brutal discrimination against all US citizens since foreigners get twice as many PhD's as all of US combined /s. Getting PHD is grueling low paid work with insane hours and very distant payoff. You become phd if you are idealist or have nothing better to do. It is possible that with all of diversity initiatives in big tech some potential phd get siphoned off after college - at least FAANG offer livable wage compared to the 30K phd stipend. There is infinite number of lines that go through a single data point.

epistasis 6y ago
That's not quite logical, because universities recruit heavily from international students. Many universities get much more funding from international students and use this to balance their books. What is the population of the world versus the population of the US?
- cameldrv 6y ago
  Universities don't collect tuition for STEM PhDs -- you either do research or TA and get a tuition waiver and a stipend. It doesn't make any difference to them whether you're from the U.S. or overseas. The real reason why the stats are so skewed towards foreigners is that the basic trade of the PhD is a lot more favorable if you don't have the alternative of just taking your bachelor's and going to work in the U.S.
  - epistasis 6y ago
    Students may not pay for the tuition directly, as a matter of course, but all the universities I'm familiar with still collect tuition, from grants of the students' advisors, etc.
    - cameldrv 6y ago
      On the undergrad side, the universities are making so much money from foreign students because they're charging them rack rate, whereas most U.S. students get some form of financial aid from the university. If you replaced a U.S. student with a foreign student, the university is going to have to tighten its belt. For grad students, the tuition waiver costs the same amount regardless of where the student is from. Assuming you could fill the ranks with (presumably less qualified overall) U.S. students, and the same amount of grant money was available, it doesn't make any difference.
cameldrv 6y ago
The income math on doing a CS PhD if you already have a bachelor's I think fairly strongly argues against it. The salary differential for a PhD just doesn't make up for losing out on six years of high paying work. The major exceptions are (right now) an ML PhD, which is highly sought after. Also, if you want to do government/defense work, the PhD is very useful. On the other hand, if you are a foreigner, it's pretty hard to break into the U.S. IT job market. H1Bs are scarce. If you can get accepted into a U.S. PhD program though, you get a well recognized credential, and you get a year of OPT and it's easier to get an H1B after that (or at least it was -- I know a lot of this is changing). You also get six years to improve your English. Even if you return to your home country, the U.S. PhD is likely to open many doors.

epistasis 6y ago

That's not quite logical, because universities recruit heavily from international students. Many universities get much more funding from international students and use this to balance their books. What is the population of the world versus the population of the US?

cameldrv 6y ago
Universities don't collect tuition for STEM PhDs -- you either do research or TA and get a tuition waiver and a stipend. It doesn't make any difference to them whether you're from the U.S. or overseas. The real reason why the stats are so skewed towards foreigners is that the basic trade of the PhD is a lot more favorable if you don't have the alternative of just taking your bachelor's and going to work in the U.S.
- epistasis 6y ago
  Students may not pay for the tuition directly, as a matter of course, but all the universities I'm familiar with still collect tuition, from grants of the students' advisors, etc.
  - cameldrv 6y ago
    On the undergrad side, the universities are making so much money from foreign students because they're charging them rack rate, whereas most U.S. students get some form of financial aid from the university. If you replaced a U.S. student with a foreign student, the university is going to have to tighten its belt. For grad students, the tuition waiver costs the same amount regardless of where the student is from. Assuming you could fill the ranks with (presumably less qualified overall) U.S. students, and the same amount of grant money was available, it doesn't make any difference.

cameldrv 6y ago

The income math on doing a CS PhD if you already have a bachelor's I think fairly strongly argues against it. The salary differential for a PhD just doesn't make up for losing out on six years of high paying work. The major exceptions are (right now) an ML PhD, which is highly sought after. Also, if you want to do government/defense work, the PhD is very useful. On the other hand, if you are a foreigner, it's pretty hard to break into the U.S. IT job market. H1Bs are scarce. If you can get accepted into a U.S. PhD program though, you get a well recognized credential, and you get a year of OPT and it's easier to get an H1B after that (or at least it was -- I know a lot of this is changing). You also get six years to improve your English. Even if you return to your home country, the U.S. PhD is likely to open many doors.