5 ms·

And? In 2020 America there is ample opportunity for anyone to attempt a CS Phd. I am a proponent of equality of opportunity, not of outcome.

epistasis 6y ago
This stat is clear evidence that there is not equality of opportunity.
- devnull3456 6y ago
  What about the stats for the number of white players in the NBA? Are they not given an equal opportunity?
- jwond 6y ago
  Disparity of outcome does not prove disparity of opportunity.
  - epistasis 6y ago
    Could you explain the logic that get you to that conclusion? Everytime somebody has tried to argue that to me, it turns out that they believe that there are racial differences that are not based on evidence. For example, I once had somebody say that the racial outcome differences were not like socioeconomic upbringing differences in outcome, and that though socioeconomic outcome differences were evidence of difference in opportunity, that racial differences were genetic, which is clearly abiological. So if you are not positing racial differences in opportunity, what are you positing as the explanatory variable?
    - luminaobscura 6y ago
      If it was all socioeconomics, you could see that in the data. You would control for parent's income and/or education, and you would see disparity disappear. I don't know what is the primary cause of disparities but i wouldn't assume it's all socioeconomics without evidence. Maybe different groups are valuing things differently? For example, an Indian may try to migrate to US using PHD as a gateway. So they may be more willing to sacrifice and work hard. Or maybe for some groups PHD (or education in general) brings more prestige compared to others.
      - epistasis 6y ago
        My point is that socioeconomic differences resulting in different outcomes would be accepted as evidence of differences of opportunity. Because there's ample evidence of opportunities being different when growing up with fewer resources and more stresses. There's also ample evidence of racial discrimination resulting in differences of opportunity, in all fields of science. But people are quick to assume that it doesn't exist, or are quick to point out any chance that it may even exist.
        luminaobscura 6y ago
        If a group has "fewer resources and more stresses" "when growing up", we should try to address that directly. This doesn't mean universities doesn't present equal opportunity. The reason someone is not as capable may be just bad luck (bad parents etc.). But still, society should give positions to most capable ones.
        epistasis 6y ago
        I would point out that the original claim was "equal opportunity," not merely "universities presenting equal opportunity." And I agree that we should fix the systemic racism that causes unequal opportunity starting from early in in life. And if we are to believe the stories that come from Black people that attempt degrees in CS, or STEM in general, they also face significant differences in opportunity at the university level as well. I'm inclined to believe these stories, as everytime I have spent some time investigating they have been true.
    - rowawey 6y ago
      Whaaa? There is no equation for it. Unquantifiable cultural trauma that has been passed-down from one generation to the next combined with treatment under slavery, lynchings, KKK marches in DC, Jim Crow segregation, crack epidemic/War on Drugs, genocide by police, and so forth. How would you feel if you were constantly treated as a criminal, as a threat to others, and the police could murder you whenever they wanted for no reason? Also, Jane Elliott's blue/brown eyes exercise should be a requirement for all elementary school children. It can't be left to chance whether or not to teach kids a lesson or two about empathy, or we risk raising a nation of selfish psychopaths who completely ignore homeless people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Elliott https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Elliott
  - ygaitonde 6y ago
    A PhD in CS is the final result of a long series of opportunities which certain groups may/may not have equitable access to. e.g. an affordable undergraduate education, resources to support students throughout undergrad, a good high school/elementary/pre-k education, and so on.
- ReptileMan 6y ago
  True that - it shows brutal discrimination against all US citizens since foreigners get twice as many PhD's as all of US combined /s. Getting PHD is grueling low paid work with insane hours and very distant payoff. You become phd if you are idealist or have nothing better to do. It is possible that with all of diversity initiatives in big tech some potential phd get siphoned off after college - at least FAANG offer livable wage compared to the 30K phd stipend. There is infinite number of lines that go through a single data point.
  - epistasis 6y ago
    That's not quite logical, because universities recruit heavily from international students. Many universities get much more funding from international students and use this to balance their books. What is the population of the world versus the population of the US?
    - cameldrv 6y ago
      Universities don't collect tuition for STEM PhDs -- you either do research or TA and get a tuition waiver and a stipend. It doesn't make any difference to them whether you're from the U.S. or overseas. The real reason why the stats are so skewed towards foreigners is that the basic trade of the PhD is a lot more favorable if you don't have the alternative of just taking your bachelor's and going to work in the U.S.
      - epistasis 6y ago
        Students may not pay for the tuition directly, as a matter of course, but all the universities I'm familiar with still collect tuition, from grants of the students' advisors, etc.
        cameldrv 6y ago
        On the undergrad side, the universities are making so much money from foreign students because they're charging them rack rate, whereas most U.S. students get some form of financial aid from the university. If you replaced a U.S. student with a foreign student, the university is going to have to tighten its belt. For grad students, the tuition waiver costs the same amount regardless of where the student is from. Assuming you could fill the ranks with (presumably less qualified overall) U.S. students, and the same amount of grant money was available, it doesn't make any difference.
metalon 6y ago
Groundbreaking idea there. Why has noone ever before thought of just giving everybody the same opportunities?
- rowawey 6y ago
  I think that's the right regarding merit-based application and selection, but certain groups need more mentoring, coaching, and supportive help that other groups already had. If someone only got in because of made-up points for winning a genetic lottery, that changes things in sinister ways that reinforces divisions and tarnishes their accomplishments. Whenever there is subjective selection, be it schools or job applicants, I think names and addresses should be blinded to reduce bias. Bias needs to be recognized and averted fairly. Passive-aggressively setting-up victim hierarchies to exclude all but a certain group is nothing more than hypocritical vindictiveness and demonstrates a fundamental lack of love and joy.

epistasis 6y ago

This stat is clear evidence that there is not equality of opportunity.

devnull3456 6y ago
What about the stats for the number of white players in the NBA? Are they not given an equal opportunity?
jwond 6y ago
Disparity of outcome does not prove disparity of opportunity.
- epistasis 6y ago
  Could you explain the logic that get you to that conclusion? Everytime somebody has tried to argue that to me, it turns out that they believe that there are racial differences that are not based on evidence. For example, I once had somebody say that the racial outcome differences were not like socioeconomic upbringing differences in outcome, and that though socioeconomic outcome differences were evidence of difference in opportunity, that racial differences were genetic, which is clearly abiological. So if you are not positing racial differences in opportunity, what are you positing as the explanatory variable?
  - luminaobscura 6y ago
    If it was all socioeconomics, you could see that in the data. You would control for parent's income and/or education, and you would see disparity disappear. I don't know what is the primary cause of disparities but i wouldn't assume it's all socioeconomics without evidence. Maybe different groups are valuing things differently? For example, an Indian may try to migrate to US using PHD as a gateway. So they may be more willing to sacrifice and work hard. Or maybe for some groups PHD (or education in general) brings more prestige compared to others.
    - epistasis 6y ago
      My point is that socioeconomic differences resulting in different outcomes would be accepted as evidence of differences of opportunity. Because there's ample evidence of opportunities being different when growing up with fewer resources and more stresses. There's also ample evidence of racial discrimination resulting in differences of opportunity, in all fields of science. But people are quick to assume that it doesn't exist, or are quick to point out any chance that it may even exist.
      - luminaobscura 6y ago
        If a group has "fewer resources and more stresses" "when growing up", we should try to address that directly. This doesn't mean universities doesn't present equal opportunity. The reason someone is not as capable may be just bad luck (bad parents etc.). But still, society should give positions to most capable ones.
        epistasis 6y ago
        I would point out that the original claim was "equal opportunity," not merely "universities presenting equal opportunity." And I agree that we should fix the systemic racism that causes unequal opportunity starting from early in in life. And if we are to believe the stories that come from Black people that attempt degrees in CS, or STEM in general, they also face significant differences in opportunity at the university level as well. I'm inclined to believe these stories, as everytime I have spent some time investigating they have been true.
  - rowawey 6y ago
    Whaaa? There is no equation for it. Unquantifiable cultural trauma that has been passed-down from one generation to the next combined with treatment under slavery, lynchings, KKK marches in DC, Jim Crow segregation, crack epidemic/War on Drugs, genocide by police, and so forth. How would you feel if you were constantly treated as a criminal, as a threat to others, and the police could murder you whenever they wanted for no reason? Also, Jane Elliott's blue/brown eyes exercise should be a requirement for all elementary school children. It can't be left to chance whether or not to teach kids a lesson or two about empathy, or we risk raising a nation of selfish psychopaths who completely ignore homeless people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Elliott https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Elliott
- ygaitonde 6y ago
  A PhD in CS is the final result of a long series of opportunities which certain groups may/may not have equitable access to. e.g. an affordable undergraduate education, resources to support students throughout undergrad, a good high school/elementary/pre-k education, and so on.
ReptileMan 6y ago
True that - it shows brutal discrimination against all US citizens since foreigners get twice as many PhD's as all of US combined /s. Getting PHD is grueling low paid work with insane hours and very distant payoff. You become phd if you are idealist or have nothing better to do. It is possible that with all of diversity initiatives in big tech some potential phd get siphoned off after college - at least FAANG offer livable wage compared to the 30K phd stipend. There is infinite number of lines that go through a single data point.
- epistasis 6y ago
  That's not quite logical, because universities recruit heavily from international students. Many universities get much more funding from international students and use this to balance their books. What is the population of the world versus the population of the US?
  - cameldrv 6y ago
    Universities don't collect tuition for STEM PhDs -- you either do research or TA and get a tuition waiver and a stipend. It doesn't make any difference to them whether you're from the U.S. or overseas. The real reason why the stats are so skewed towards foreigners is that the basic trade of the PhD is a lot more favorable if you don't have the alternative of just taking your bachelor's and going to work in the U.S.
    - epistasis 6y ago
      Students may not pay for the tuition directly, as a matter of course, but all the universities I'm familiar with still collect tuition, from grants of the students' advisors, etc.
      - cameldrv 6y ago
        On the undergrad side, the universities are making so much money from foreign students because they're charging them rack rate, whereas most U.S. students get some form of financial aid from the university. If you replaced a U.S. student with a foreign student, the university is going to have to tighten its belt. For grad students, the tuition waiver costs the same amount regardless of where the student is from. Assuming you could fill the ranks with (presumably less qualified overall) U.S. students, and the same amount of grant money was available, it doesn't make any difference.

metalon 6y ago

Groundbreaking idea there. Why has noone ever before thought of just giving everybody the same opportunities?

rowawey 6y ago
I think that's the right regarding merit-based application and selection, but certain groups need more mentoring, coaching, and supportive help that other groups already had. If someone only got in because of made-up points for winning a genetic lottery, that changes things in sinister ways that reinforces divisions and tarnishes their accomplishments. Whenever there is subjective selection, be it schools or job applicants, I think names and addresses should be blinded to reduce bias. Bias needs to be recognized and averted fairly. Passive-aggressively setting-up victim hierarchies to exclude all but a certain group is nothing more than hypocritical vindictiveness and demonstrates a fundamental lack of love and joy.