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I assume you're getting downvoted because you don't seem to take issue with censorship of free speech ultimately being a problem, and why people take stand agai

by loceng 6y ago

I assume you're getting downvoted because you don't seem to take issue with censorship of free speech ultimately being a problem, and why people take stand against tyrants?

crazygringo 6y ago
I've got no idea. I literally said I don't personally like it, so obviously I do take issue. But there's no scandal with Zoom in this particular case. And this certainly isn't anything new about China. Why people are downvoting something so factual is beyond me. You'll have to ask them.
- loceng 6y ago
  The issue is that events like this break the fourth wall and remind us that companies are willing to bend over to make profits in countries controlled by tyrannical structures like the CCP, meanwhile we then are indirectly supporting the same behaviour of bad actors.
  - crazygringo 6y ago
    Explain to me how using Zoom in the US indirectly supports the CCP? Because I don't see it. A huuuge segment of the American economy is based on trade with China. Just like we use gasoline that comes from Saudi Arabia. Unless you're arguing that we cut off all free trade with countries that abuse human rights, using Zoom is no different from buying a water bottle at REI in this particular instance. Also, there's a well-known theory [1] that rising economic living standards ultimately promote greater democracy and human rights, as the people in a country reach suddenly have the ability to demand more. We've already seen that happening in the past 10 years in China, particularly when it comes to corruption and environmentalism. According to that, the more we do business with China, and the higher standard of living they therefore more quickly achieve, the sooner they can pressure their government for more human rights. Now I'm not saying this is an inevitability or anything, in fact it's a hotly contested theory particularly with regards to China -- but I am saying that "boycott companies that do business in China" isn't crystal-clear morally superior. The reality is complicated. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modernization_theory#Democratization_and_modernization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modernization_theory#Democrati...
- vezycash 6y ago
  > Zoom accidentally deactivated a US-based account, and fixed it when they found out. This is why I downvoted your comment.
  - crazygringo 6y ago
    Do you care to explain why? Because what I said is factual. They stated they aim to "limit the actions we take to those necessary to comply with local law", in this case their action went beyond that limit, and now that they're aware, they fixed it. And I see no evidence otherwise -- this is not something they've shown any pattern of behavior in. It appears to be a one-off. Any conspiracy-mongering that Zoom is nefariously in cahoots with the Chinese government to intentionally try to sneak in an extra blocked account just begs credulity.
    - vezycash 6y ago
      >Because what I said is factual. The company has been caught lying at least 3 times. 1. Lying about their daily active users. https://thenextweb.com/apps/2020/04/30/zoom-daily-active-users-lie-300m/ https://thenextweb.com/apps/2020/04/30/zoom-daily-active-use... 2. Lying that they used 256 bit encryption (it was 128 bit) 3. Lying about using end to end encryption 4. Lying about separating Chinese users from the rest of the network https://www.channelpartnersonline.com/2020/04/07/zoom-lied-faces-criticism-for-newly-discovered-lax-security-practices/ https://www.channelpartnersonline.com/2020/04/07/zoom-lied-f... I'm not the only one who was waiting for the cover up lie for this incidence. "if they make an excuse AFTER THIS STORY BLOWS UP, I think it's reasonable to consider their justification "retconned" and not actually the real reason they closed the account (which can be reasonably inferred to be CCP-aligned censorship)." https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23481177 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23481177 It's also not the first time an American company would lockup a non-chinese user's account for saying/doing something china doesn't like. A famous example is Blizzard's banning of a Hong Kong protester's account, seizing his earnings and backtracked after the story went viral.
- nooneknowswhy 6y ago
  No one personally liked the Nazis, and the World dealt with it. Now it's the time. Yes, CCP === Nazis

by loceng 6y ago

I assume you're getting downvoted because you don't seem to take issue with censorship of free speech ultimately being a problem, and why people take stand against tyrants?

crazygringo 6y ago

I've got no idea. I literally said I don't personally like it, so obviously I do take issue. But there's no scandal with Zoom in this particular case. And this certainly isn't anything new about China. Why people are downvoting something so factual is beyond me. You'll have to ask them.

loceng 6y ago
The issue is that events like this break the fourth wall and remind us that companies are willing to bend over to make profits in countries controlled by tyrannical structures like the CCP, meanwhile we then are indirectly supporting the same behaviour of bad actors.
- crazygringo 6y ago
  Explain to me how using Zoom in the US indirectly supports the CCP? Because I don't see it. A huuuge segment of the American economy is based on trade with China. Just like we use gasoline that comes from Saudi Arabia. Unless you're arguing that we cut off all free trade with countries that abuse human rights, using Zoom is no different from buying a water bottle at REI in this particular instance. Also, there's a well-known theory [1] that rising economic living standards ultimately promote greater democracy and human rights, as the people in a country reach suddenly have the ability to demand more. We've already seen that happening in the past 10 years in China, particularly when it comes to corruption and environmentalism. According to that, the more we do business with China, and the higher standard of living they therefore more quickly achieve, the sooner they can pressure their government for more human rights. Now I'm not saying this is an inevitability or anything, in fact it's a hotly contested theory particularly with regards to China -- but I am saying that "boycott companies that do business in China" isn't crystal-clear morally superior. The reality is complicated. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modernization_theory#Democratization_and_modernization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modernization_theory#Democrati...
vezycash 6y ago
> Zoom accidentally deactivated a US-based account, and fixed it when they found out. This is why I downvoted your comment.
- crazygringo 6y ago
  Do you care to explain why? Because what I said is factual. They stated they aim to "limit the actions we take to those necessary to comply with local law", in this case their action went beyond that limit, and now that they're aware, they fixed it. And I see no evidence otherwise -- this is not something they've shown any pattern of behavior in. It appears to be a one-off. Any conspiracy-mongering that Zoom is nefariously in cahoots with the Chinese government to intentionally try to sneak in an extra blocked account just begs credulity.
  - vezycash 6y ago
    >Because what I said is factual. The company has been caught lying at least 3 times. 1. Lying about their daily active users. https://thenextweb.com/apps/2020/04/30/zoom-daily-active-users-lie-300m/ https://thenextweb.com/apps/2020/04/30/zoom-daily-active-use... 2. Lying that they used 256 bit encryption (it was 128 bit) 3. Lying about using end to end encryption 4. Lying about separating Chinese users from the rest of the network https://www.channelpartnersonline.com/2020/04/07/zoom-lied-faces-criticism-for-newly-discovered-lax-security-practices/ https://www.channelpartnersonline.com/2020/04/07/zoom-lied-f... I'm not the only one who was waiting for the cover up lie for this incidence. "if they make an excuse AFTER THIS STORY BLOWS UP, I think it's reasonable to consider their justification "retconned" and not actually the real reason they closed the account (which can be reasonably inferred to be CCP-aligned censorship)." https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23481177 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23481177 It's also not the first time an American company would lockup a non-chinese user's account for saying/doing something china doesn't like. A famous example is Blizzard's banning of a Hong Kong protester's account, seizing his earnings and backtracked after the story went viral.
nooneknowswhy 6y ago
No one personally liked the Nazis, and the World dealt with it. Now it's the time. Yes, CCP === Nazis