5 ms·

In 2019, there were only 13 PhDs in CS granted to African Americans in the U.S. [pdf]

37 points by camillomiller 6y ago

camillomiller 6y ago
Ethnicity stats can be seen at page 6.
- Udik 6y ago
  These don't seem ethnicity stats at all. These are "two or three groups we have problems with" plus the rest of humanity divided in "white" and "Asians".
ReptileMan 6y ago
And the Nonresident Aliens get 906 more times PHDs than native hawaian (also twice as many as all of US ethnicities combined) Statistics could mean a lot of things and can be spun a lot of ways.
_prototype_ 6y ago
And? In 2020 America there is ample opportunity for anyone to attempt a CS Phd. I am a proponent of equality of opportunity, not of outcome.
- epistasis 6y ago
  This stat is clear evidence that there is not equality of opportunity.
  - devnull3456 6y ago
    What about the stats for the number of white players in the NBA? Are they not given an equal opportunity?
  - jwond 6y ago
    Disparity of outcome does not prove disparity of opportunity.
    - epistasis 6y ago
      Could you explain the logic that get you to that conclusion? Everytime somebody has tried to argue that to me, it turns out that they believe that there are racial differences that are not based on evidence. For example, I once had somebody say that the racial outcome differences were not like socioeconomic upbringing differences in outcome, and that though socioeconomic outcome differences were evidence of difference in opportunity, that racial differences were genetic, which is clearly abiological. So if you are not positing racial differences in opportunity, what are you positing as the explanatory variable?
      - luminaobscura 6y ago
        If it was all socioeconomics, you could see that in the data. You would control for parent's income and/or education, and you would see disparity disappear. I don't know what is the primary cause of disparities but i wouldn't assume it's all socioeconomics without evidence. Maybe different groups are valuing things differently? For example, an Indian may try to migrate to US using PHD as a gateway. So they may be more willing to sacrifice and work hard. Or maybe for some groups PHD (or education in general) brings more prestige compared to others.
        epistasis 6y ago
        My point is that socioeconomic differences resulting in different outcomes would be accepted as evidence of differences of opportunity. Because there's ample evidence of opportunities being different when growing up with fewer resources and more stresses. There's also ample evidence of racial discrimination resulting in differences of opportunity, in all fields of science. But people are quick to assume that it doesn't exist, or are quick to point out any chance that it may even exist.
        6y ago
  - ReptileMan 6y ago
    True that - it shows brutal discrimination against all US citizens since foreigners get twice as many PhD's as all of US combined /s. Getting PHD is grueling low paid work with insane hours and very distant payoff. You become phd if you are idealist or have nothing better to do. It is possible that with all of diversity initiatives in big tech some potential phd get siphoned off after college - at least FAANG offer livable wage compared to the 30K phd stipend. There is infinite number of lines that go through a single data point.
    - epistasis 6y ago
      That's not quite logical, because universities recruit heavily from international students. Many universities get much more funding from international students and use this to balance their books. What is the population of the world versus the population of the US?
      - cameldrv 6y ago
        Universities don't collect tuition for STEM PhDs -- you either do research or TA and get a tuition waiver and a stipend. It doesn't make any difference to them whether you're from the U.S. or overseas. The real reason why the stats are so skewed towards foreigners is that the basic trade of the PhD is a lot more favorable if you don't have the alternative of just taking your bachelor's and going to work in the U.S.
        epistasis 6y ago
        Students may not pay for the tuition directly, as a matter of course, but all the universities I'm familiar with still collect tuition, from grants of the students' advisors, etc.
        cameldrv 6y ago
        On the undergrad side, the universities are making so much money from foreign students because they're charging them rack rate, whereas most U.S. students get some form of financial aid from the university. If you replaced a U.S. student with a foreign student, the university is going to have to tighten its belt. For grad students, the tuition waiver costs the same amount regardless of where the student is from. Assuming you could fill the ranks with (presumably less qualified overall) U.S. students, and the same amount of grant money was available, it doesn't make any difference.
- metalon 6y ago
  Groundbreaking idea there. Why has noone ever before thought of just giving everybody the same opportunities?
  - rowawey 6y ago
    I think that's the right regarding merit-based application and selection, but certain groups need more mentoring, coaching, and supportive help that other groups already had. If someone only got in because of made-up points for winning a genetic lottery, that changes things in sinister ways that reinforces divisions and tarnishes their accomplishments. Whenever there is subjective selection, be it schools or job applicants, I think names and addresses should be blinded to reduce bias. Bias needs to be recognized and averted fairly. Passive-aggressively setting-up victim hierarchies to exclude all but a certain group is nothing more than hypocritical vindictiveness and demonstrates a fundamental lack of love and joy.
twybrobdingnag 6y ago
Nonresident Alien 906 61.7% Amer Indian or Alaska Native 2 0.1% Asian 151 10.3% Black or African-American 13 0.9% Native Hawaiian/Pac Islander 1 0.1% White 365 24.9% Multiracial, not Hispanic 9 0.6% Hispanic, any race 21 1.4%
- speby 6y ago
  And only 21 of hispanic background? That's low, too. Also, "Non-resident Alien" could include all manner of race/ethnicity. Does it break anything down beyond that?
jungletime 6y ago
This is terrible. More black people are struck by lightning, than earn a CS Phd? "over the last 30 years (1989-2018) the U.S. has averaged 43 reported lightning fatalities per year. Only about 10% of people who are struck by lightning are killed, leaving 90% with various degrees of disability" https://www.weather.gov/safety/lightning-odds https://www.weather.gov/safety/lightning-odds 13.2% of the US population is black. https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/IPE120218 https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/IPE120218 So expected is about 6 black people killed by lighting, and 60 struck/year vs 13 who graduate with CS Phd if these stats are correct.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
ta_tunestub 6y ago
According to Census Bureau (2019)[1], this is the racial/ethnic makeup of the US: White 60.4% Hispanic and Latino Americans (of any race) 18.3% Black or African American 13.4% Asian 5.9% Native Americans and Alaska Natives 1.3% Native Hawaiians and Other Pacific Islander 0.2% Two or more races 2.7% Below is the normalized 2019 CS Ph.D. count for what you'd expect if the US was 100% of each respective race/ethnicity: White 608 Hispanic... 115 Black or African/American 97 Asian 2,560 Native Americans/Alaska Native 153 Native Hawaiian/Pac Islander 500 [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_the_Unit...
joeblow9999 6y ago
using the word 'granted' is an odd phrasing here
- eesmith 6y ago
  How so? The terminology is centuries old. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_degree https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_degree , which mentions things like "The Archbishop of Canterbury's right to grant degrees is derived from Peter's Pence Act of 1533 which empowered the Archbishop to grant dispensations previously granted by the Pope") Or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_degree#History_of_professional_degrees_in_North_America https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_degree#History_of... - "The M.B. or Bachelor of Medicine was the first medical degree to be granted in the United States and Canada." Or for a university, http://catalog.yale.edu/gsas/degree-granting-departments-programs/ http://catalog.yale.edu/gsas/degree-granting-departments-pro... - "Degree-Granting Departments and Programs".
mydongle 6y ago
Holy shit just give all African Americans PhDs from birth and be done with it.

37 points by camillomiller 6y ago

camillomiller 6y ago

Ethnicity stats can be seen at page 6.

Udik 6y ago
These don't seem ethnicity stats at all. These are "two or three groups we have problems with" plus the rest of humanity divided in "white" and "Asians".

ReptileMan 6y ago

And the Nonresident Aliens get 906 more times PHDs than native hawaian (also twice as many as all of US ethnicities combined) Statistics could mean a lot of things and can be spun a lot of ways.

_prototype_ 6y ago

And? In 2020 America there is ample opportunity for anyone to attempt a CS Phd. I am a proponent of equality of opportunity, not of outcome.

epistasis 6y ago
This stat is clear evidence that there is not equality of opportunity.
- devnull3456 6y ago
  What about the stats for the number of white players in the NBA? Are they not given an equal opportunity?
- jwond 6y ago
  Disparity of outcome does not prove disparity of opportunity.
  - epistasis 6y ago
    Could you explain the logic that get you to that conclusion? Everytime somebody has tried to argue that to me, it turns out that they believe that there are racial differences that are not based on evidence. For example, I once had somebody say that the racial outcome differences were not like socioeconomic upbringing differences in outcome, and that though socioeconomic outcome differences were evidence of difference in opportunity, that racial differences were genetic, which is clearly abiological. So if you are not positing racial differences in opportunity, what are you positing as the explanatory variable?
    - luminaobscura 6y ago
      If it was all socioeconomics, you could see that in the data. You would control for parent's income and/or education, and you would see disparity disappear. I don't know what is the primary cause of disparities but i wouldn't assume it's all socioeconomics without evidence. Maybe different groups are valuing things differently? For example, an Indian may try to migrate to US using PHD as a gateway. So they may be more willing to sacrifice and work hard. Or maybe for some groups PHD (or education in general) brings more prestige compared to others.
      - epistasis 6y ago
        My point is that socioeconomic differences resulting in different outcomes would be accepted as evidence of differences of opportunity. Because there's ample evidence of opportunities being different when growing up with fewer resources and more stresses. There's also ample evidence of racial discrimination resulting in differences of opportunity, in all fields of science. But people are quick to assume that it doesn't exist, or are quick to point out any chance that it may even exist.
        6y ago
- ReptileMan 6y ago
  True that - it shows brutal discrimination against all US citizens since foreigners get twice as many PhD's as all of US combined /s. Getting PHD is grueling low paid work with insane hours and very distant payoff. You become phd if you are idealist or have nothing better to do. It is possible that with all of diversity initiatives in big tech some potential phd get siphoned off after college - at least FAANG offer livable wage compared to the 30K phd stipend. There is infinite number of lines that go through a single data point.
  - epistasis 6y ago
    That's not quite logical, because universities recruit heavily from international students. Many universities get much more funding from international students and use this to balance their books. What is the population of the world versus the population of the US?
    - cameldrv 6y ago
      Universities don't collect tuition for STEM PhDs -- you either do research or TA and get a tuition waiver and a stipend. It doesn't make any difference to them whether you're from the U.S. or overseas. The real reason why the stats are so skewed towards foreigners is that the basic trade of the PhD is a lot more favorable if you don't have the alternative of just taking your bachelor's and going to work in the U.S.
      - epistasis 6y ago
        Students may not pay for the tuition directly, as a matter of course, but all the universities I'm familiar with still collect tuition, from grants of the students' advisors, etc.
        cameldrv 6y ago
        On the undergrad side, the universities are making so much money from foreign students because they're charging them rack rate, whereas most U.S. students get some form of financial aid from the university. If you replaced a U.S. student with a foreign student, the university is going to have to tighten its belt. For grad students, the tuition waiver costs the same amount regardless of where the student is from. Assuming you could fill the ranks with (presumably less qualified overall) U.S. students, and the same amount of grant money was available, it doesn't make any difference.
metalon 6y ago
Groundbreaking idea there. Why has noone ever before thought of just giving everybody the same opportunities?
- rowawey 6y ago
  I think that's the right regarding merit-based application and selection, but certain groups need more mentoring, coaching, and supportive help that other groups already had. If someone only got in because of made-up points for winning a genetic lottery, that changes things in sinister ways that reinforces divisions and tarnishes their accomplishments. Whenever there is subjective selection, be it schools or job applicants, I think names and addresses should be blinded to reduce bias. Bias needs to be recognized and averted fairly. Passive-aggressively setting-up victim hierarchies to exclude all but a certain group is nothing more than hypocritical vindictiveness and demonstrates a fundamental lack of love and joy.

twybrobdingnag 6y ago

Nonresident Alien 906 61.7% Amer Indian or Alaska Native 2 0.1% Asian 151 10.3% Black or African-American 13 0.9% Native Hawaiian/Pac Islander 1 0.1% White 365 24.9% Multiracial, not Hispanic 9 0.6% Hispanic, any race 21 1.4%

speby 6y ago
And only 21 of hispanic background? That's low, too. Also, "Non-resident Alien" could include all manner of race/ethnicity. Does it break anything down beyond that?

jungletime 6y ago

This is terrible. More black people are struck by lightning, than earn a CS Phd? "over the last 30 years (1989-2018) the U.S. has averaged 43 reported lightning fatalities per year. Only about 10% of people who are struck by lightning are killed, leaving 90% with various degrees of disability" https://www.weather.gov/safety/lightning-odds https://www.weather.gov/safety/lightning-odds 13.2% of the US population is black. https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/IPE120218 https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/IPE120218 So expected is about 6 black people killed by lighting, and 60 struck/year vs 13 who graduate with CS Phd if these stats are correct.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

ta_tunestub 6y ago

According to Census Bureau (2019)[1], this is the racial/ethnic makeup of the US: White 60.4% Hispanic and Latino Americans (of any race) 18.3% Black or African American 13.4% Asian 5.9% Native Americans and Alaska Natives 1.3% Native Hawaiians and Other Pacific Islander 0.2% Two or more races 2.7% Below is the normalized 2019 CS Ph.D. count for what you'd expect if the US was 100% of each respective race/ethnicity: White 608 Hispanic... 115 Black or African/American 97 Asian 2,560 Native Americans/Alaska Native 153 Native Hawaiian/Pac Islander 500 [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_the_Unit...

joeblow9999 6y ago

using the word 'granted' is an odd phrasing here

eesmith 6y ago
How so? The terminology is centuries old. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_degree https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_degree , which mentions things like "The Archbishop of Canterbury's right to grant degrees is derived from Peter's Pence Act of 1533 which empowered the Archbishop to grant dispensations previously granted by the Pope") Or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_degree#History_of_professional_degrees_in_North_America https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_degree#History_of... - "The M.B. or Bachelor of Medicine was the first medical degree to be granted in the United States and Canada." Or for a university, http://catalog.yale.edu/gsas/degree-granting-departments-programs/ http://catalog.yale.edu/gsas/degree-granting-departments-pro... - "Degree-Granting Departments and Programs".

mydongle 6y ago

Holy shit just give all African Americans PhDs from birth and be done with it.