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Hydrogen can be stored underground in the form of salt caverns or domes. According to this: https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/201910.0187/v1 https://www.prep

by Hypx 6y ago

Hydrogen can be stored underground in the form of salt caverns or domes. According to this: https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/201910.0187/v1 https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/201910.0187/v1 The storage capacity is 84.8 PWh-H2 in Europe across all known formations. This is a very large number and likely far exceeds demand. It's safe to say we will not struggle with hydrogen storage if or when we need it.

pfdietz 6y ago
In particular, the optimum solution for a steady supply of renewable power for Germany (from https://model.energy https://model.energy) for their current average grid power demand would involve about 0.1% of this as hydrogen storage. And that's just salt caverns. Hydrogen can also be stored in aquifers and spent oil fields.
- macspoofing 6y ago
  So why is Germany building NEW pipelines from Russia to import their natural gas? It sounds like there's no point in investing in natural gas when you could spend those same billions just building hydrogen storage. What are they missing?
  - pfdietz 6y ago
    The cost of CO2 is not yet high enough to make the CO2-free alternative less expensive. This is the same reason Germany's coal use didn't start rapidly declining until recently, when the European CO2 market was tweaked to raise the price of CO2 credits. It's not because the CO2-free alternatives aren't possible. (It's also possible they're adding pipelines for security reasons, to avoid cutoff by intermediaries. I don't know if that's actually the case though.)
macspoofing 6y ago
>Hydrogen can be stored underground in the form of salt caverns or domes. And is it? On a grid-scale? And if not, why not? Is it because there are major technical hurdles that need to be overcome, and it's a completely unproven approach? This is what happens with these renewable discussions. Proponents will just throw out theories as facts and non-existent technologies as ready for prime time and gloss over intrinsic technical hurdles ... meanwhile in the real world, even though there is desperation to move from fossil fuels, somehow those ideas aren't implemented. Why is Germany building NEW natural gas pipelines, instead of building hydrogen storage? The Syrian conflict is partially exacerbated by geopolitical jockeying between Russia and Turkey and others for the right to build future pipelines into Europe. What do they all know that we don't know?
- pfdietz 6y ago
  It's not happening yet because the cost of CO2 is not high enough yet to make it competitive. Having said that, Germany is putting a lot of money into hydrogen, and this is driving down the cost of electrolysers, the same way Germany drove down the cost of PV a decade ago.
- Hypx 6y ago
  It is happening since hydrogen is used in oil refining and other industries. Not at the scale needed, but there is definitely large quantities of hydrogen being stored this way. Broadly speaking, it is not much different than storing natural gas.

by Hypx 6y ago

pfdietz 6y ago

In particular, the optimum solution for a steady supply of renewable power for Germany (from https://model.energy https://model.energy) for their current average grid power demand would involve about 0.1% of this as hydrogen storage. And that's just salt caverns. Hydrogen can also be stored in aquifers and spent oil fields.

macspoofing 6y ago
So why is Germany building NEW pipelines from Russia to import their natural gas? It sounds like there's no point in investing in natural gas when you could spend those same billions just building hydrogen storage. What are they missing?
- pfdietz 6y ago
  The cost of CO2 is not yet high enough to make the CO2-free alternative less expensive. This is the same reason Germany's coal use didn't start rapidly declining until recently, when the European CO2 market was tweaked to raise the price of CO2 credits. It's not because the CO2-free alternatives aren't possible. (It's also possible they're adding pipelines for security reasons, to avoid cutoff by intermediaries. I don't know if that's actually the case though.)

macspoofing 6y ago

>Hydrogen can be stored underground in the form of salt caverns or domes. And is it? On a grid-scale? And if not, why not? Is it because there are major technical hurdles that need to be overcome, and it's a completely unproven approach? This is what happens with these renewable discussions. Proponents will just throw out theories as facts and non-existent technologies as ready for prime time and gloss over intrinsic technical hurdles ... meanwhile in the real world, even though there is desperation to move from fossil fuels, somehow those ideas aren't implemented. Why is Germany building NEW natural gas pipelines, instead of building hydrogen storage? The Syrian conflict is partially exacerbated by geopolitical jockeying between Russia and Turkey and others for the right to build future pipelines into Europe. What do they all know that we don't know?

pfdietz 6y ago
It's not happening yet because the cost of CO2 is not high enough yet to make it competitive. Having said that, Germany is putting a lot of money into hydrogen, and this is driving down the cost of electrolysers, the same way Germany drove down the cost of PV a decade ago.
Hypx 6y ago
It is happening since hydrogen is used in oil refining and other industries. Not at the scale needed, but there is definitely large quantities of hydrogen being stored this way. Broadly speaking, it is not much different than storing natural gas.