4 ms·

Things have definitely changed. Twenty years ago, I had friends with a wide variety of opinions, and it generally seemed possible to disagree without it being

Things have definitely changed. Twenty years ago, I had friends with a wide variety of opinions, and it generally seemed possible to disagree without it being a problem. These days, generally only the people to my "right" seem like this. It's rare to be able to talk long with someone to my "left" without them becoming offended. That seems particularly unusual, as I've been pretty far to the left my entire life. It's tempting to look at the 2016 election as the cause, but I started really noticing this about a year before that.

D13Fd 6y ago
I honestly think part of it is foreign state influence on social media, through literal fake news (not "they're biased," but "we faked a publication with fake events that never happened"), memes, and targeted manipulation designed to inflame divisions. We're literally under attack, and these divisions are the result. For example, the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence -- while controlled by Republicans -- concluded that driving factions of the U.S. ideologically apart is a chief aim of Russia's social media efforts. See pages 20-22 of Volume 2 of the 2019 Report on Russian Active Measures Campaigns: https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/documents/Report_Volume2.pdf https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/docu... Specifically, the Republican Senate concluded that Russia's aim is to erode trust in the media, drive polarization, feed information that drives support for all political extremes (far-left, far-right, and other), and "exploit societal divisions that already exist, rather than attempt to create new ruptures." They also want to "bait[] governments to respond in a heavy-handed or improper fashion that is irreconcilable with the nation's principles and civil liberties." It's working.
- downerending 6y ago
  I think there's something to this, but perhaps a bit more complex. A lot of the "fake news" I see is coming straight from NYT and WaPo, so not directly due to "bots" or whatever. But certainly it's plausible that a foreign entity could be indirectly plotting to destroy the credibility of those papers, as a general morale destroyer. Watching our papers of record debase themselves is an awful sight. The broad "bot" concept could be in play, but people are so cheap that I suspect it's funded humans instead. There does seem to be something amplifying our tendencies towards polarization. Thirty years ago, if someone had a wacky set of ideas, people would point and laugh. These days, they're relatively more likely to clubbed into submission, forced into a struggle session, or just cancelled completely.
  - D13Fd 6y ago
    I actually didn't even mention bots, although social media bots are part of it (in terms of posting things). I think it's mostly real people working for Russia and China, stirring up other people who are not. Social media is a huge echo chamber. As far as NYT and WaPo, they are not "fake news" in the sense I was talking about. Nor is Fox, Breitbart, OANN etc. I'm talking about sites that are set up for people to imitate news organizations and spread made up but super polarizing content, often about race, religion, abortion, guns, immigration -- anything that divides people. That content then pings around on social media and helps amps up the polarization to incredible levels.
    - downerending 6y ago
      > I'm talking about sites that are set up for people to imitate news organizations and spread made up but super polarizing content, often about race, religion, abortion, guns, immigration -- anything that divides people. That pretty much describes journalism these days.
      - pieterk 6y ago
        divide and conquer.
- thu2111 6y ago
  But this "Russians want to sow discord" thing is a conspiracy theory. It's been investigated a billion times and the allegations always fall apart, yet people don't reduce their belief in it - it's sort of like UFOs in that regard. We can even trace its evolution because it's not that old. Before the Trump election campaign, Russia wasn't being talked about much. The sudden spike in Russia/bot/fake news etc related conspiracies aligns exactly with Trump winning and the American left going into a sort of meltdown as they tried to explain why their candidate didn't flatten him. "Fake news" started as an attack on Trump which he then co-opted because the American right had been complaining about biased media for a lot longer than the left, so it was easy for him to do so as the base was already primed. We can even spot the moment at which the conspiracy changed from being "Russians want to get Trump elected" to "Russians want to sow generic discord". It was the moment Facebook revealed the list of adverts purchased by Russians during the election campaign, and it turned out that it was a total mix of ads for both sides! The ads weren't all for Trump at all, which was inexplicable given the claims up to that point. (actually a simple explanation is that the FB analysis was just selecting random false positives rather than shadowy Russian operators as they believed). So overnight true believers changed their beliefs to be "Russians want us to fight each other" which is ridiculous, because American politics has been famously divided and divisive for years. Like with George W Bush, who is apparently redeemed now, but I remember when he was supposedly just as bad as Trump is considered today. Why would anyone waste money on trying to create something Americans do just fine creating themselves?
happytoexplain 6y ago
For what a single anecdote is worth, my experience is the political inverse of yours. I had many right-of-me friends who slowly stopped being able to converse with me without becoming angry or offended, and I'm very non-confrontational with friends and family. I always give them the utmost benefit of the doubt. On top of that, I'm not even very far left. But our friendships fell apart when they started using phrases like "disgustingly liberal". It's beyond awful what's happening to society. I can count my remaining right-of-me friends on one hand - they're more emotionally steady than the others had been, and can have disagreements without becoming bitter.

D13Fd 6y ago

I honestly think part of it is foreign state influence on social media, through literal fake news (not "they're biased," but "we faked a publication with fake events that never happened"), memes, and targeted manipulation designed to inflame divisions. We're literally under attack, and these divisions are the result. For example, the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence -- while controlled by Republicans -- concluded that driving factions of the U.S. ideologically apart is a chief aim of Russia's social media efforts. See pages 20-22 of Volume 2 of the 2019 Report on Russian Active Measures Campaigns: https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/documents/Report_Volume2.pdf https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/docu... Specifically, the Republican Senate concluded that Russia's aim is to erode trust in the media, drive polarization, feed information that drives support for all political extremes (far-left, far-right, and other), and "exploit societal divisions that already exist, rather than attempt to create new ruptures." They also want to "bait[] governments to respond in a heavy-handed or improper fashion that is irreconcilable with the nation's principles and civil liberties." It's working.

downerending 6y ago
I think there's something to this, but perhaps a bit more complex. A lot of the "fake news" I see is coming straight from NYT and WaPo, so not directly due to "bots" or whatever. But certainly it's plausible that a foreign entity could be indirectly plotting to destroy the credibility of those papers, as a general morale destroyer. Watching our papers of record debase themselves is an awful sight. The broad "bot" concept could be in play, but people are so cheap that I suspect it's funded humans instead. There does seem to be something amplifying our tendencies towards polarization. Thirty years ago, if someone had a wacky set of ideas, people would point and laugh. These days, they're relatively more likely to clubbed into submission, forced into a struggle session, or just cancelled completely.
- D13Fd 6y ago
  I actually didn't even mention bots, although social media bots are part of it (in terms of posting things). I think it's mostly real people working for Russia and China, stirring up other people who are not. Social media is a huge echo chamber. As far as NYT and WaPo, they are not "fake news" in the sense I was talking about. Nor is Fox, Breitbart, OANN etc. I'm talking about sites that are set up for people to imitate news organizations and spread made up but super polarizing content, often about race, religion, abortion, guns, immigration -- anything that divides people. That content then pings around on social media and helps amps up the polarization to incredible levels.
  - downerending 6y ago
    > I'm talking about sites that are set up for people to imitate news organizations and spread made up but super polarizing content, often about race, religion, abortion, guns, immigration -- anything that divides people. That pretty much describes journalism these days.
    - pieterk 6y ago
      divide and conquer.
thu2111 6y ago
But this "Russians want to sow discord" thing is a conspiracy theory. It's been investigated a billion times and the allegations always fall apart, yet people don't reduce their belief in it - it's sort of like UFOs in that regard. We can even trace its evolution because it's not that old. Before the Trump election campaign, Russia wasn't being talked about much. The sudden spike in Russia/bot/fake news etc related conspiracies aligns exactly with Trump winning and the American left going into a sort of meltdown as they tried to explain why their candidate didn't flatten him. "Fake news" started as an attack on Trump which he then co-opted because the American right had been complaining about biased media for a lot longer than the left, so it was easy for him to do so as the base was already primed. We can even spot the moment at which the conspiracy changed from being "Russians want to get Trump elected" to "Russians want to sow generic discord". It was the moment Facebook revealed the list of adverts purchased by Russians during the election campaign, and it turned out that it was a total mix of ads for both sides! The ads weren't all for Trump at all, which was inexplicable given the claims up to that point. (actually a simple explanation is that the FB analysis was just selecting random false positives rather than shadowy Russian operators as they believed). So overnight true believers changed their beliefs to be "Russians want us to fight each other" which is ridiculous, because American politics has been famously divided and divisive for years. Like with George W Bush, who is apparently redeemed now, but I remember when he was supposedly just as bad as Trump is considered today. Why would anyone waste money on trying to create something Americans do just fine creating themselves?

happytoexplain 6y ago

For what a single anecdote is worth, my experience is the political inverse of yours. I had many right-of-me friends who slowly stopped being able to converse with me without becoming angry or offended, and I'm very non-confrontational with friends and family. I always give them the utmost benefit of the doubt. On top of that, I'm not even very far left. But our friendships fell apart when they started using phrases like "disgustingly liberal". It's beyond awful what's happening to society. I can count my remaining right-of-me friends on one hand - they're more emotionally steady than the others had been, and can have disagreements without becoming bitter.